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Jazzelyne
Cadet 4
Joined: Mar 20, 2004
Member#: 5682
Posts: 18
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
   
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 Posted:
Mon May 17, 2004 4:22 am Post subject: |
 
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After seeing Troy yesterday, I also would like to say something usefull about the score. But as I try to remember it now, I can't recollect any particular moment in the movie at which point the score made a lasting impression. For me, this is one in a million blockbuster scores: not bad, but also not worth buying in the nearby future.
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"Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer". |
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Jazzelyne
Cadet 4
Joined: Mar 20, 2004
Member#: 5682
Posts: 18
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Posted:
Mon May 17, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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As for Gabriel Yared, I'm listening now to extracts of his score for Troy. And I must say that it's beautiful. Not the mainstream "bombastic theme" thing. And not old-fashioned at all. The chorus gives it just the ancient feeling it needs. Like the singing voice in the English Patient gave that particular score a Arabian/Hongarian touch.
Thank you PeteC for your info about Gabriel Yared.
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"Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer". |
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 PeteC 
Commander
Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Member#: 3796
Posts: 587
Location: Evanston, IL
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Posted:
Mon May 17, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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What a great idea, Cocles! I would definitely get the DVD, if I knew both scores were on it!!
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All in the world recognize the
beautiful as beautiful. Herein
lies ugliness. All recognize the
good as good. Herein lies evil. |
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TrickSpine
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 14, 2004
Member#: 5089
Posts: 80
Location: CANADA!!!!
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 12:58 am Post subject: |
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ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, where to begin.... firstly, cocles, i have seen the film and i have heard Yared's score. so, making an informed opinion wasn't THAT difficult.having heard both scores, it is difficult to imagine musical minds behind the decision-making. i'm with sjfreeberg. he/she is all over it. i think it was definitely business for a number of reasons. a) the quote that it was business-related on the Yared site was not written by Yared, but a friend or something. (don't remember.) b)why would the director turn down his score when he apparently loved it enough to insist that it be used in the testing phases? it was Warner Bros. who came along and made the decision. now, my feeling is that the people at Warner Bros. who made the decision were 1) dumbasses and 2) know nothing about music. they said the score was "too old-fashioned"!  um, what?! it was written for a movie set 3,200 years ago!!! what, EXACTLY, were they expecting? if it weren't about politics, how could they POSSIBLY have chose Horner, with a month left and his recycling record?!
as for the Horner score itself: as much as i find Horner very cheap in his ways, he is known, in my mind, for very memorable and beautiful themes, (he just uses them over and over). but i think he suffered under the time pressures of this film. there was nothing particularly memorable about the themes for me and i took nothing home with me. another reason that i think that he suffered for the time restraints was that the themes that he did have were used repeatedly without elaboration throughout the movie. and you would know, "oh, well, here comes that theme again, brace yourself for tragedy", etc.
anyhoo, circleprovider, based upon the one time i have heard the Horner score while trying to watch the movie for the first time, i have, so far, picked out the following recycled/stolen themes which i can state with confidence, (more will come to me, don't worry): 'Enemy at the Gates', where a trumpet slurs triplet-one, which is used in cases of dire emotion in both films. in 'Troy' it was most noticeable in the storming of the beaches, etc. he also used this in 'A Beautiful Mind', amongst others. (and, knowing cocles is going to attack me for this, let me just say that this little trumpet riff is not an accidental similarity, it is a frequent occurance that i am not alone in noticing/recognizing.) next, we have the choral parts of the score which were taken from Yared's original work for the film. now, granted with the time shortage and the expense, this is to be expected, especially since it was especially written to bring out certain emotions and mirror the times, etc. but, given that it was taken from the Yared score i had hoped he would get some credit for it..... but, alas, no. 
finally, Horner fan or no, i feel that the majesty of the film could have been augmented more with a different composer. (Peterson chose Yared specifically, and with confidence. he said that he knew that Yared wasn't known for his epic scores, but Peterson claimed he had faith.) none of us will ever know for certain if the decision was artistic or business related - and if it was artisic, it was damn dumb and foolhardy given that they only had a month before release - but no matter which, this will remain, in my mind, a musical tragedy. |
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 mellowman
Captain
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Member#: 2939
Posts: 1119
Location: UK
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, trick, I haven't seen the film or heard any of the music yet - but surely you would need to see the film running with both scores before you could make a judgement on the relative merits of either one?
Yared's might just not have worked in the way they wanted it to with the images.
Also,
| TrickSpine wrote: |
and you would know, "oh, well, here comes that theme again, brace yourself for tragedy", etc.
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well, wouldn't some people argue that the music is supposed to augment the emotion in the film? So you'd kind of hope that the music would make people think "tragedy"!
Anyway, I'm writing this from a point of having neither heard nor seen Troy - so I'm open to persuasion otherwise...
Edit: just more grammar I wasn't happy with.. |
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Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| TrickSpine wrote: |
| i have seen the film and i have heard Yared's score. so, making an informed opinion wasn't THAT difficult. |
You've heard the whole score? Awesome! And here I was thinking that only little snippets of it had been released. And to make an informed opinion you must have therefore seen Yared's score with the film! Trick, you have to tell the rest of us where you had this opportunity, so we can all share in the experience!
| Quote: |
| i'm with sjfreeberg. he/she is all over it. i think it was definitely business for a number of reasons. |
That's weird, 'cause when I read sjfreeberg's post he wrote that it was a combination of art and business. And I agreed with him. Has he edited his post? Schucks-a-rooney 'cause if he did I better go edit mine!
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| a) the quote that it was business-related on the Yared site was not written by Yared, but a friend or something. (don't remember.) |
Yes of course, the artist could be biased, but NOT his friend. No... Never... That's impossible... You're not my father. Ben said you killed him.
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| b)why would the director turn down his score when he apparently loved it enough to insist that it be used in the testing phases? |
Yeah, even though this info is from the composer I'm sure it's not biased either. After all, I've never bought something I liked, only to bring it home and discover it wasn't as good as I thought. So why would Wolfgang Pertersen?
And here I was, thinking that if a director with as much clout as Wolfgang Petersen wanted the score that badly, it probably wouldn't have mattered what the execs had to say. You'd think that with a director of that magnitude, he would at least already need to be on the fence for the score to be changed by the execs.
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| it was Warner Bros. who came along and made the decision. |
Oh it was? You were there? Sheesh. I wish I was you.
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| now, my feeling is that the people at Warner Bros. who made the decision were 1) dumbasses and 2) know nothing about music. |
Right, because we KNOW it was Warner Bros.
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| they said the score was "too old-fashioned"! um, what?! it was written for a movie set 3,200 years ago!!! what, EXACTLY, were they expecting? |
And all this time I thought they meant "Old-fashioned" as for as movie scores go, not the history of the world. Silly me.
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| if it weren't about politics, how could they POSSIBLY have chose Horner, with a month left and his recycling record?! |
Exactly, because if the decision were 100% artistic, they would have magically had much more time to do another score and wouldn't have needed a composer who could dish something out fast.
When I myself need something dished out fast, I tend to go with the amateur. I mean... if we're down to the 11th hour and need something that's garanteed to at least be decent despite the time constraint, why go with a seasoned pro? Give me the amateur! 
| Quote: |
| as for the Horner score itself: as much as i find Horner very cheap in his ways, he is known, in my mind, for very memorable and beautiful themes, (he just uses them over and over). but i think he suffered under the time pressures of this film. there was nothing particularly memorable about the themes for me and i took nothing home with me. another reason that i think that he suffered for the time restraints was that the themes that he did have were used repeatedly without elaboration throughout the movie. and you would know, "oh, well, here comes that theme again, brace yourself for tragedy", etc. |
Right. Themes in soundtracks are bad. I hate in Star Wars whenever that damned Imperial March plays. BLAH!
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| anyhoo, circleprovider, based upon the one time i have heard the Horner score while trying to watch the movie for the first time, i have, so far, picked out the following recycled/stolen themes which i can state with confidence, (more will come to me, don't worry): 'Enemy at the Gates', where a trumpet slurs triplet-one, which is used in cases of dire emotion in both films. in 'Troy' it was most noticeable in the storming of the beaches, etc. he also used this in 'A Beautiful Mind', amongst others. (and, knowing cocles is going to attack me for this, let me just say that this little trumpet riff is not an accidental similarity, it is a frequent occurance that i am not alone in noticing/recognizing.) |
Attack? Noo.. Why would I do that when I agree with you? I also expect artists to NEVER use anything that resembles a previous work of theirs. Everything should be 100% original.
It really ticks me off when I see Terminator and then True Lies, and notice James Cameron, once again using damaged fluorescent lights in his action sequences to create the proper effect. Or even worse, what's up with Monet and painting in nothing but that so called "impressionist" style? All of his paintings are done the same way, and some of them are even of the same thing with just different lighting! Or Escher with his hand-drawn optical illusions? Talk about a bunch of untalented one song hacks! For me to respect an artist, none of his work can ever have any resemblance with something else he's already done.
| Quote: |
| next, we have the choral parts of the score which were taken from Yared's original work for the film. now, granted with the time shortage and the expense, this is to be expected, especially since it was especially written to bring out certain emotions and mirror the times, etc. but, given that it was taken from the Yared score i had hoped he would get some credit for it..... but, alas, no. |
Yep, gosh. I suppose it would have been okay if there was this things called a "Union" that all the composers belonged too, and it was actually the Union and not the studio that decided who got credit based on the percentage of work each individual actually had in the final score.
| Quote: |
| finally, Horner fan or no, i feel that the majesty of the film could have been augmented more with a different composer. (Peterson chose Yared specifically, and with confidence. he said that he knew that Yared wasn't known for his epic scores, but Peterson claimed he had faith.) none of us will ever know for certain if the decision was artistic or business related |
Wait, we'll never know? Trick, just a second ago you said you knew it was Warner Brothers and you even gave reasons why. Now I'm confused! 
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| - and if it was artisic, it was damn dumb and foolhardy given that they only had a month before release - but no matter which, this will remain, in my mind, a musical tragedy. |
Couldn't have said it more melodramatically myself. |
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 Robert_Locksley
Commander
Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Member#: 980
Posts: 536
Location: British Columbia
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Man, o' man TrickSpine! Once I read your post I thought "You've dug yourself a hole!" Just a "few" inconsistencies picked up by our friend, Mr. C. 
_________________
"Get it?...Got it!...GOOD!" -- The Court Jester |
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Hurr78
Commander
Joined: Feb 12, 2004
Member#: 5061
Posts: 739
Location: Toronto
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 3:19 am Post subject: |
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lol... this exchange certainly made for an entertaining read.
Trick, you appear to be motivated by a special love for Yared's music. And he is a great composer. But why get so upset about his replacement as the composer of one particular film?
It has happened to some of the greatest composers... Alex North's score for 2001 was scrapped by Kubrick, Jerry Goldsmith was replaced by Tangerine Dream on the North American release of Legend, and Ennio Morricone was booted in favour of Michael Kamen on What Dreams May Come. Like those composers, Yared will move on to new projects and will continue to be a major player. Whether or not the director and producers of Troy made the best decision is a counterfactual debate... and best left for them to ponder themselves.
You never know, maybe they'll release a DVD with a choice of scores (although I don't think that the chances of that are very high). If they do, then we can all watch both versions and have a lively debate on the topic. But even then, it will just be a clash of opinions. |
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circleprovider
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Member#: 4984
Posts: 65
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps Trick's response was so full of emotion because this was the first experience of one composer being dropped for another.
That's how it was for me, and that is how I reacted at first. Statements were flying, and I'm guessing that I didn't have much to back 'em up. So if that's the case, I wouldn't be too hard on Trick.
I also had an advantage over many. I got to see the film with *some* of the soundtrack in place. The pieces were all there, but it just wasn't polished. And Yared's theme was certainly more memorable. However, after listening to Yared's first piece, I had that blasted tune stuck in my head all day! Even after watching Troy that night I come out humming Yared. So perhaps those who made the decision did so because the music was *too* memorable. Who knows?
And perhaps that's the most important thing here. Who knows? So far, no one on this forum.
I've learned that I when I post anything, I need to make sure I don't sound like I *know* something that I really don't. Most of this really is speculation and opinion.
... I've gotta get ready for work, and my son ready for school, so I pause here, I'll be back to finish my thought later this morning ... |
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Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| circleprovider wrote: |
| I wouldn't be too hard on Trick. |
Don't play devil's advocate. Trick's done this before. |
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circleprovider
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Member#: 4984
Posts: 65
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Posted:
Wed May 19, 2004 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, so I'm back ... about 10 hours later. And I hope I can recall the other half of what I wanted to point out.
When I first posted about Horner replacing Yared I was being unfair. I assumed that I knew all there was to know about the score, yadda yadda yadda, the rest is history.
I think I'm biased against Horner.
First off, and I think I've said this before, I'm a movie freak. I can usually get caught up in any movie. Let's roll back to '97. Titanic was in the theaters. I went to see this movie, not really knowing anything about it, except for the fact that I've always been fond of this era. And of course, before long, I was caught up in the movie. I found that it was the music that really did it for me. Just when I was feeling a certain emotion throughout the movie, the music would kick in exactly at the right place and right time. For whatever reason it just worked for me.
This was the first time, other than Last of the Mohicans, that I thought of getting the soundtrack. And it was also the first time that I cared about who actually made the music. This is what started me off to movies and soundtracks.
Then, I came across Braveheart's music. How I managed to miss this movie I don't really know. And there it was. Many very similar parts of "Titanic" mixed in with Braveheart. In truth, it was parts of Braveheart's score mixed in with Titanic. All of a sudden I realized that the movie wasn't what I originally thought, and the composer didn't work day and night to find the music that was *just right* for that movie.
This of course all hit me when I was very new to the game, and so Horner has always been an easy target for me when I feel the need to complain about repetative music.
I've learned more since coming here. And when you come down to Earth and realize the composers are humans as well, then it makes sense that they do what they do. What if they made a piece for one movie, only to find that it really fits much better in another? I suppose they are entitled to use it then, since it is, afterall, their own work.
And now I've kind of lost the whole point to my post. So ... with that said ...
Yared's work is great. Horner's work, although not quite his best, fits the movie for the most part. We will not know who made all of the decisions and why. All we have is a piece of art, {and business  }, that is presented as the contributors wish it to be presented. We either enjoy it or not. Simple as that. |
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TrickSpine
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 14, 2004
Member#: 5089
Posts: 80
Location: CANADA!!!!
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Posted:
Thu May 20, 2004 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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oh, this is so much fun! i love how you all take me so seriously... well, whatever you want to think is fine for you and so forth... although, i do think it's interesting, cocles, how you can use the same twisting effect that you accuse me of to totally convolute my points. are you a journalist?
as for the hole-digging: don't you think they should create awards for the most sh*t-disturbing posts? |
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TrickSpine
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 14, 2004
Member#: 5089
Posts: 80
Location: CANADA!!!!
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Posted:
Thu May 20, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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mellowman - i didn't say themes were bad. i said he has like two or three themes - one happy - one scary - one sad and so forth and plays them over and over. the movie is a bit of a rollercoaster emotionally so, like i said, you knew after the first time something ie) sad happened, the next time that exact theme played , more saddness was on order.
oh, and i saw Troy again.... i can now draw bar after bar copied from Braveheart and more Enemy at the Gates...and it wasn't just me. my kid sister brought drew the same comparison all one her own....
but, now, i will halt. i will draw no more comparisons after this, since this obviously rattles too many cages. |
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circleprovider
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Member#: 4984
Posts: 65
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Posted:
Thu May 20, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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So, what was it about the movie that had you go see it again? It took me a few days to get over the bad experience that I had with it. And even now, that I'm able to let go of the analyzing and start to focus on the parts of the film that I enjoyed, I still couldn't bring myself to sit through another 3 hours so soon.
And you had called it a "musical tragedy". I myself wouldn't waste time or money on something that I thought was that bad.
So what did it for you? Hmmm ... was it the nude scenes?
Anyway ... just curious. |
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TrickSpine
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 14, 2004
Member#: 5089
Posts: 80
Location: CANADA!!!!
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Posted:
Fri May 21, 2004 12:13 am Post subject: |
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ahahahahahahah. i don't know why i didn't expect anyone to question why i saw it again, but now that i think about it, i'm glad you did. well, the answer isn't very glamourous. it was my sister's birthday, so we went out for Japanese and we were going to watch a movie. she decided on 'Troy' and it was her birthday, so no one had the right to argue. but, it was a much more pleasurable experience. the first time i saw it i was in one of the front rows of the biggest screen on the island (excluding IMAX) and so i couldn't really see and felt very....ill. it makes a big difference when you can see. lol. anyways, i minded seeing it again a little, but the naked chests eased the pain. |
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