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Chat System TestDrive

 
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USA Morglum
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 10:47 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Well, here is the first in a series of testdrives for the new StreamingSoundtracks.com Chat System. Please take a look, and let me know what you think.

StreamingSoundtracks.com Chat System Testdrive - Week One
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:05 pm   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Ahh, yes working fine now.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:09 pm   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


So I checked out the new chat system.

Pro's
-The Cache is limitless.... this is nice. If you step away for awhile you can come back and see what you missed, and it cuts down on people having to ask for summaries of what happened while they were gone.

-The "seen" command is nice. It lets us know if someone's been around.

Con's
-The chat is in its own separate window. I seem to remember several of us requesting that the chat remain quietly on the left or right column of the page. A lot of us talk from work and enjoy the fact that the chat doesn't look like a chat. Thus there is less of a chance of us getting in trouble with the people upstairs.

-When you log on you can't see a cache of what was posted before you got there. This always made it easier to jump into the coversation. It also cut down on the amount of "so what are we talking about" questions.

-You can't see who's logged on without logging in. Sure this eliminates lurking, which could be a good thing, but in other ways it's bad. Most of the people I've found who chat on the board, do so because one day they were lurking when a subject came up they were interested in. They logged on to chat about it and the rest is history. Personally, I log on when someone's there who I want to talk to. I don't want to be required to jump into the chat and risk being sucked into the conversation when I just want to see who's logged on.

What happened to keep it simple? This seemed to be one of the most supported requests when we were asked for our opinions. Look at what this new board is capable of....

** Available commands :
** BAN HELP
** IGNORE KICK
** QUIT MSG
** OP SEEN
** SETLEVEL STATS
** UNBAN UNIGNORE
** USERSINFO

-MSG.... Private message? I thought we ALL agreed that we didn't want private messaging. This will ruin the board. It will end up like an IRC channel where the main board is silent because everyone is whispering to each other. Not being able to message made the board a nicer place because everything had to be said out in the open. Everything included everyone. No little whisper groups. If someone needed to say something in confidence to another they could always use the private message feature in the forum. We've already discussed this, so why has MSG been added?

-Ban? Kick? Op? Yes I see the humor in me being the one complaining about it, but lets face it. The SST chat is great because everyone is equal. There is no hierarchy. There are no OPS. We like the board because it is NOT IRC. So why are you making it so? Go read the updates on the main page. It's pretty plain to see that the majority of those who donate are people who speak on the board. Are you going to kick/ban someone who's giving there credit card and writing checks for this site?

-Ignore? Good god, this is for spammers, and we've rarely if ever had a problem with that. When you ignore a person it only riles them up even more, knowing you can't hear them. For jerks, ignore is not seen as a stopping block. All it is is a challenge to see just how much further you can go before the person unignores you to see what awful things you're saying abou them. (Combining this with the Moderator swooping in and kicking the guy, and this is how online wars start. This is how script kiddies are born, this is how the stream ends up under attack again.)

-Usersinfo... so what is this? What does this tell you? Just our IP? I love how people with only "level 8" clearance can use it. At least in IRC everyone has access to this. Like I said, the great thing about the old board is that everyone is equal. The new board has this 1984 "Big Brother Is Watching You" feel to it.

On the Fence...
-What we type on the chat, appears instantly with no ~30 second delay. This is good as it makes the chat much more efficient. Conversations can get underway and move along. One aspect I don't know about is whether this set up will lead to LAG on the chatboard. Plus, personally, I like the 30 second delay. It slows things down a little. It gives you time to go back and get to work. With messages coming every few seconds, it might not be as easy to work and chat at the same time.

Summary

From what I've seen, this new board is almost exactly what people didn't want. If you didn't want our opinions then why did you ask for them?

Giving the power to Kick, Ban, Op to others adds something to the board none of us want: POLITICS. Now we have OPs watching over us, so better watch what you say. Now we have people acting twice as bad because someone ignored them. Now we have others left out as two go off to whisper on their own.

Personally I don't mind if Jeric has ops, or can kick/ban/whatever. Jeric is anything but power hungry, and more importantly, IT'S HIS BOARD. He can do whatever he wants, and the only time I've ever seen Jeric raise his online voice is when someone was abusing the queue. Jeric has also ALWAYS had this power, and that is fine.

The new board however seems to be a quiet way of giving the OTHER moderators a little more power, and frankly I don't know if they should be given it. They donate their time. We donate our money. Should this designate some sort of RANK? I liked it better when we were equal. Jeric has always been a perfect gentleman moderator, but I have to be honest, the others have not. I myself was recently threatened by a moderator in a real life manner. The issue has since been resolved, but I still don't like the idea of the current moderators (as well as any new ones) being able to govern over us with the same might Jeric has.

All this new chatboard has done is take away what we liked about the old board, and added features that don't make it as nice a place. Fix it, or get rid of it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:52 pm   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Wow Cocles, why don't you tell us how you really feel? [Wink]

Has anyone else had any problems launching the chat while using Windows XP Professional? I was able to access it fine at work on Windows 98, but at home with XP Prof. it either locked up my IE or crashed my entire system everytime.

[Roll Eyes]
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:33 pm   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


quote:
Originally posted by Pixie:
Wow Cocles, why don't you tell us how you really feel? [Wink]

Has anyone else had any problems launching the chat while using Windows XP Professional? I was able to access it fine at work on Windows 98, but at home with XP Prof. it either locked up my IE or crashed my entire system everytime.

[Roll Eyes]

I had problems at first with IE & XP Pro.
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USA Morglum
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 10:15 pm   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


quote:
Originally posted by Cocles:
So I checked out the new chat system.

Pro's
-The Cache is limitless.... this is nice. If you step away for awhile you can come back and see what you missed, and it cuts down on people having to ask for summaries of what happened while they were gone.

-The "seen" command is nice. It lets us know if someone's been around.

Con's
-The chat is in its own separate window. I seem to remember several of us requesting that the chat remain quietly on the left or right column of the page. A lot of us talk from work and enjoy the fact that the chat doesn't look like a chat. Thus there is less of a chance of us getting in trouble with the people upstairs.

-When you log on you can't see a cache of what was posted before you got there. This always made it easier to jump into the coversation. It also cut down on the amount of "so what are we talking about" questions.

-You can't see who's logged on without logging in. Sure this eliminates lurking, which could be a good thing, but in other ways it's bad. Most of the people I've found who chat on the board, do so because one day they were lurking when a subject came up they were interested in. They logged on to chat about it and the rest is history. Personally, I log on when someone's there who I want to talk to. I don't want to be required to jump into the chat and risk being sucked into the conversation when I just want to see who's logged on.

What happened to keep it simple? This seemed to be one of the most supported requests when we were asked for our opinions. Look at what this new board is capable of....

** Available commands :
** BAN HELP
** IGNORE KICK
** QUIT MSG
** OP SEEN
** SETLEVEL STATS
** UNBAN UNIGNORE
** USERSINFO

-MSG.... Private message? I thought we ALL agreed that we didn't want private messaging. This will ruin the board. It will end up like an IRC channel where the main board is silent because everyone is whispering to each other. Not being able to message made the board a nicer place because everything had to be said out in the open. Everything included everyone. No little whisper groups. If someone needed to say something in confidence to another they could always use the private message feature in the forum. We've already discussed this, so why has MSG been added?

-Ban? Kick? Op? Yes I see the humor in me being the one complaining about it, but lets face it. The SST chat is great because everyone is equal. There is no hierarchy. There are no OPS. We like the board because it is NOT IRC. So why are you making it so? Go read the updates on the main page. It's pretty plain to see that the majority of those who donate are people who speak on the board. Are you going to kick/ban someone who's giving there credit card and writing checks for this site?

-Ignore? Good god, this is for spammers, and we've rarely if ever had a problem with that. When you ignore a person it only riles them up even more, knowing you can't hear them. For jerks, ignore is not seen as a stopping block. All it is is a challenge to see just how much further you can go before the person unignores you to see what awful things you're saying abou them. (Combining this with the Moderator swooping in and kicking the guy, and this is how online wars start. This is how script kiddies are born, this is how the stream ends up under attack again.)

-Usersinfo... so what is this? What does this tell you? Just our IP? I love how people with only "level 8" clearance can use it. At least in IRC everyone has access to this. Like I said, the great thing about the old board is that everyone is equal. The new board has this 1984 "Big Brother Is Watching You" feel to it.

On the Fence...
-What we type on the chat, appears instantly with no ~30 second delay. This is good as it makes the chat much more efficient. Conversations can get underway and move along. One aspect I don't know about is whether this set up will lead to LAG on the chatboard. Plus, personally, I like the 30 second delay. It slows things down a little. It gives you time to go back and get to work. With messages coming every few seconds, it might not be as easy to work and chat at the same time.

Summary

From what I've seen, this new board is almost exactly what people didn't want. If you didn't want our opinions then why did you ask for them?

Giving the power to Kick, Ban, Op to others adds something to the board none of us want: POLITICS. Now we have OPs watching over us, so better watch what you say. Now we have people acting twice as bad because someone ignored them. Now we have others left out as two go off to whisper on their own.

Personally I don't mind if Jeric has ops, or can kick/ban/whatever. Jeric is anything but power hungry, and more importantly, IT'S HIS BOARD. He can do whatever he wants, and the only time I've ever seen Jeric raise his online voice is when someone was abusing the queue. Jeric has also ALWAYS had this power, and that is fine.

The new board however seems to be a quiet way of giving the OTHER moderators a little more power, and frankly I don't know if they should be given it. They donate their time. We donate our money. Should this designate some sort of RANK? I liked it better when we were equal. Jeric has always been a perfect gentleman moderator, but I have to be honest, the others have not. I myself was recently threatened by a moderator in a real life manner. The issue has since been resolved, but I still don't like the idea of the current moderators (as well as any new ones) being able to govern over us with the same might Jeric has.

All this new chatboard has done is take away what we liked about the old board, and added features that don't make it as nice a place. Fix it, or get rid of it.

My dear Mr. Cocles. Don't you realize that those other commands would be for Jeric and the other admins? We need some way to be able to control those individuals who can and tend to be disruptive. It's not like we would be handing out that status to everyone and thier cousin.

As to the private's, that is included so that if there are any problems in the chat, it can be handled without causing a disruption to the main chat. This way, everyone else can still have a good time, and be at peace [Wink]

And in regards to to the layout and size, please remember, this is only a testdrive. The final product will be embedded into the website, and will be pleasing to everyone (or so I hope).
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Netherlands Caliburn VIP (subscribed member)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 11:16 pm   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Well I tried, it but it doesnt work. It hangs after I try to log in (IE6 and win2k). But sadly if it is a real chatsession like IRC, I am not able to participate. Like Cocles said. I am here at work. And a real chatsession will be easier to detect for the guys upstairs. And is far more time consuming.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 11:23 pm   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


As far as I've seen, several of those commands can be used by everyone.

Ignore works for everyone, and, as I explained in my post above, it WILL cause problems.

And private msg works, which will all out ruin the chat. It's already quiet enough in the chat bar, now it'll be all out dead as people will only msg each other. Go on IRC and see for yourself.

Where you said:
"As to the private's, that is included so that if there are any problems in the chat, it can be handled without causing a disruption to the main chat."

Give me a break Morglum. So NO ONE is going to use private messaging unless it's an Admin telling someone to be nice? If that's the case then why is it available for everyone to use? Or does this new chat require the honor system?

As far as "those other commands go" I have never witnessed a time when an admin had to swoop in and start banning and/or kicking people.

I have, however, watched an admin jump in and start making personal threats. I have watched an admin pull favortism. I have watched an admin lose their cool. The admins are not all neutral, and therefore not the type I trust to be fair with the power to ban people.
If you had read my post a little more closely you would have seen that I don't like the idea of ANYONE having that kind of clout beyond Jeric and his wife. That includes the other admins.

You also said:
"And in regards to to the layout and size, please remember, this is only a testdrive. The final product will be embedded into the website, and will be pleasing to everyone (or so I hope)."

Thank you, finally something good.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:14 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


This only says connecting... for me then locks up IE.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:31 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Was having some server problems, but it should be fixed now.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:32 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


I've been trying it and it just shows Connecting ...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:38 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Mr. M. Mr. C. If we can stop hissing at each other for a few minutes here I think the message is getting lost if you will pardon the pun.
Mr. M., the message that we want to get to you is that we like the chat the way that it is right now. The only "feature" that we would add would be user identification. Have us recognized the same way the forum recognizes us. We do not want bells, whistles, gizmos, or gadgets. We do not want the private messages and the like. We can ignore someone without a button to do so. We are all adults here. If we wanted all of that stuff we would not be chatting here. We chat here for the simplicity and the "family". If you and Jeric, as administrators, feel that you need the ability to block someone. or pass them a private warning then you, the admins, can have those buttons available. having those buttons out in the open for everyone is an invitation to disaster. As Mr. C. said, the board is too quiet sometimes now. We have all gone to chat rooms where there are 20 people listed as being in the rom and nobody appears to be talking. We want to talk to eachother and not have the other options.
Mr. C. Mr. M. , whether you like it or not, IS an administrator. I trust him to try not to abuse any power he has but I also know that he is human. If I piss him off he could boot me as fast as he could boot you. While I have mixed emotions about banning someone I know that it has to be an option for the administrators. The same as it would be if I started to chat on Disney.com and started making pedophile references. I trust him to be fair as I trust Jeric to be fair. which is to say that I trust neither of them to be fair at all but that they will balance each other out and a decision from one is not a final.
Well I have rambled on long enough on this subject so let me leave with this parting thought to Mr. M.
K = keep
I = it
S = simple
S = stupid
Please keep that in mind for the next chat test drive.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:43 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Hey Morglum,

I logged on the chat this morning and found the chat board to be the subject of discussion. Thought you'd find it interesting.

And don't worry, I got their permission to post it.

And Morglum, on a side note. I do appreciate all the time and effort you've put into the site. I know you're trying to help. But I really think your infinite efforts aren't as needed in fixing the chatboard.

(Obviously you'll need to scroll down and start at the bottom.)

June 19th, 2002

Pixie: "where is everyone this morning?"
(Wed 5:13am)

Cal: "But you are right"
(Wed 5:03am)

Cal: "lol, all that on one line Smile"
(Wed 5:03am)

Pixie: "sorry, that was kinda long winded"
(Wed 5:02am)

Pixie: "I agree, but I think as long as we share that when the time comes, the powers that be will be receptive of that. After all, as Cocles said in his book on the forum, we are the ones making the donations, we are the ones listening. I think they know that and will respond"
(Wed 5:02am)

Cal: "If it is an IRC kind of chat, I dont think a lot of us can use it anymore, because of our work :-/"
(Wed 5:00am)

Pixie: "or maybe something more like what we were thinking will come along"
(Wed 4:52am)

Pixie: "I think Morglum will probably do a poll when we have tested them all, I'm sure keep this chat will be on there...maybe we will want to"
(Wed 4:51am)

Pixie: "bye esparvel"
(Wed 4:50am)

Pixie: "I agree, I think this chat is fine for the way we all use it. It would be nice to add user id/password though"
(Wed 4:50am)

esparvel: "lunch bbl"
(Wed 4:50am)

jk2silly: "I never meant to have chat test systems and IRC style interfaces and java clients. UNGH!"
(Wed 4:48am)

jk2silly: "That is why I started this whole escapade. I wanted user identifiication"
(Wed 4:47am)

Cal: "I like this one just the way it is. A user/passwd is the only thing we need in here IMHO"
(Wed 4:45am)

esparvel: "I'm having already problems with my admin because he thinks I'm downloading MP3 and is threatening to shut the ports down at the firewall, if I add something like IRC, then I'll probably be off"
(Wed 4:45am)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:53 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


"A lot of us talk from work and enjoy the fact that the chat doesn't look like a chat. Thus there is less of a chance of us getting in trouble with the people upstairs."

------------

That's my biggest concern about the new style of chat - I also surf to this site from work and I like the fact that the current chat window doesn't look like a chat. Having something large or located in another window increases my odds of getting busted by my boss.

:-)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 10:49 am   Post subject: Chat System TestDrive Reply with quote


Oh. my. God.
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