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Experiencing sound and THX certified theatres (split:Tell us
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ScoreAficionado
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:09 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


I think it's interesting that many of you who've responded so far are using headphones. I use headphones as well, but not only because I want to isolate myself better from the surroundings, but also because the headphones offer a more intimate and transparent sound experience than my loudspeakers (which are about to be replaced later this year). So from a personal standpoint, it's not a matter of necessity, but a matter of preference.

Most of the time, when I listen to music, I'm a passive listener. I enjoy listening to background music when working for example. However, I often listen actively when I want to relax or before I go to sleep. Of course, I'm also an active listener when I really want to enjoy the music, but for practical reasons that's not always possible.

Listening to a high-end audio system is no prerequisite to reach audio nirvana (although it helps a lot): Over 12 years ago I used a simple CD-player hooked up to my cassette-player. I used headphones not only because I had to, but because the rather cheap phones were still better than the speakers on the cassette player.

Despite the cheap setup, I listened carefully and got really absorbed in the music. It's a wonderful experience, because it feels as if time slows down, you're completely isolated, and you're able to catch more nuances in the music. It's almost like being in some sort of trance. The best listening experiences I've had can easily be compared to the best audiovisual viewing experiences I've had at the local THX-certified theatre.

Today I use much better equipment, and the headphones are very analytical and exposes nuances and details in the music that no other headphone I've had comes close to. But I believe the most important thing is whether you're listening actively or not.

Some people may not be aware of this, but purchasing headphones is one of the cheapest ways to improve the sound quality of a stereo (but again, you can't really improve the sound beyond the weakest link in your audio chain). As a general guideline, you have to pay 10 times as much for a pair of speakers that is as good as a given headphone. Many of the headphones you find at typical electronics stores are bad though. You're more likely to find good headphones in a dedicated hi-fi store, even though these headphones usually cost more (at least $100-200).

Some of you mentioned that few other people they know enjoy scores (not to be confused with 'songtracks' or non-instrumental 'inspired by'-albums, which are much more popular among people in general): I'm in the same situation. I've been listening to scores since the early 80's, and very few people that I've met have ever shown appreciation for this rather special kind of music. My father is one of the few people who seem to appreciate symphonic scores (at least to a certain degree), and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that he enjoys classical music. But most other people just find scores to be noisy and uninteresting, which only goes to show how much (or little) they really know. So it's nice to find places on the net where I can 'meet' other score enthusiasts, and discuss a topic that would bore other people half to death.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:29 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


ScoreAficionado wrote:
compared to the best audiovisual viewing experiences I've had at the local THX-certified theatre.


Be careful though. Once a theater gains that certification it gets to keep it forever (even after the speakers have worn out and the equiptment has gone to hell). Perhaps THX has finally changed this. Hopefully they have.

Either way, it's always best to just go to all the movie theaters in your area until you find the one with the best sound.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:21 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Cocles wrote:
Be careful though. Once a theater gains that certification it gets to keep it forever


I'm afraid that's definitely not correct. The local THX-theatres (or THX-theaters in general, for that matter) have to be tested and recalibrated once a year (by THX engineers), if they want to renew their certification. If they fail to pass the requirements, they no longer have the right to use the THX-logo.

It is true though, that the sound in a THX-certified theater might be substandard from time to time. Either because some equipment fails or because of human failure. But these occurences are rare, and the problems are usually fixed immediately or within a few days.

Quote:
Perhaps THX has finally changed this. Hopefully they have.


As far as I know, THX-theaters have always been required to meet the THX-requirements at regular intervals. At least it has been like that since 1994.

Quote:
Either way, it's always best to just go to all the movie theaters in your area until you find the one with the best sound.


The THX-theaters happen to be the best theaters in my town. They also happen to be the best theaters I've ever been in. But THX-theaters are not born equal, and some THX-theaters are better than others (THX uses an internal 5-point scale to rate THX-theaters).

It's also true that a theater doesn't necessarily need a THX-certification in order to sound good, but not many non-certified THX-theaters can measure up to the best certified ones.

One last thing: THX-certification for theaters is not only about sound and acoustics, like many people believe. The certification also deals with comfort and image-quality.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:27 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


First off, settle down, Sancho. When you've even got me thinking you're making a mountain out of mole-hill, it's time to switch to decaffeinated.

It's pretty damn obvious from your nick that you're a know-it-all pompous dingus who thinks you know more about soundtracks than anyone, even though you just got here. And the fact that you made a friggin' multi paragraph post just because someone said (and even admitted they could be wrong) that THX certificates might not mean much, tells me that you must place at least some of your personal worth on this vast amount superior knowledge you must have.

In the late 90's when I was still in school and studying sound design I was taught that THX certificates didn't mean much. A theater could easily get one when all their stuff was brand new, and THX wasn't very good at keeping an eye on things afterwords (even though they might have claimed they would). That is why some of the worst theaters around my school had nice shiney THX emblems at the entrance to all their screens.

Either you work for THX, or you're some doofus who learned everything you know out of a book and therefore thinks that because you read, "THX regularly patrols their certified theaters" it must certainly BE TRUE!

Perhaps THX is finally cleaning up their act. If so, great! It still, however, is doubtful they have the resources to police the tens of thousands of theaters they've given certificates too since the late seventies.

P.S.

Quote:
The THX-theaters happen to be the best theaters in my town. They also happen to be the best theaters I've ever been in.


Well EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME!

Quote:
But THX-theaters are not born equal, and some THX-theaters are better than others (THX uses an internal 5-point scale to rate THX-theaters).


I love it when people start spouting off factoids in an argument to try to show off how smart they are (as if this somehow bolsters their point of view).

Quote:
It's also true that a theater doesn't necessarily need a THX-certification in order to sound good, but not many non-certified THX-theaters can measure up to the best certified ones.


So if two theaters were built exactly the same, but only one bothered to get the certificate, the certified one would sound better?

Please. Go back to grade school. You're so weirdly infatuated with THX in this argument that you're barely able to recognize that some theaters might not feel the need to get certified even though it could easily do so.

Quote:
One last thing: THX-certification for theaters is not only about sound and acoustics, like many people believe. The certification also deals with comfort and image-quality.


And there you go with your factoid spewing again.

All I was trying to do was give you and the others a possible heads up, but you had to freak out because I was badmouthing your precious THX. Do you have any idea what a doofus that makes you look like? Do you have any idea what a doofus I look like for letting you make me go on for this long?

Personally I think you're just freaking out, because you feel I somehow said you were wrong about something.

If you're actually that much unable to handle being wrong, I suggest you go somewhere else (like your mom's basement.)

This is why I shouldn't bother being nice sometimes.

Yeehaw. (Yeah, this was a long P.S.)

Never underestimate a woman's scorn, or a writers will to procrastinate.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:39 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Cocles wrote:
First off, settle down, Sancho.


I'm not angry at all. If my post made it sound as if I was angry or irritated, then you've misinterpreted my tone.

Quote:
It's pretty damn obvious from your nick that you're a know-it-all pompous dingus who thinks you know more about soundtracks than anyone, even though you just got here.


I'm really surprised to hear this from a person who has been appointed to moderator. Personal attacks by other users is one thing, but name-calling from moderators is quite another matter. So you base your judgment on people based on their nicks?

I'm not pretending that I know more about soundtracks than everyone else, but after having been a score enthusiast for over 20 years I do believe that I know something about scores. I think most people here do, and that's why we gather here in the first place, to share our views and knowledge with other enthusiasts.

Quote:
And the fact that you made a friggin' multi paragraph post just because someone said (and even admitted they could be wrong) that THX certificates might not mean much, ...


I'm not sure why you're suddenly referring to yourself as 'someone'? It was your post I responded to. And I prefer to split my response into paragraphs when I reply to a specific post in order to make my post more readable.

Besides, your paraphrasing is incorrect. You didn't say that "THX certificates might not mean much". You said that "Once a theater gains that certification it gets to keep it forever ... Perhaps THX has finally changed this". That's not the same thing.

You seem very defensive. If you feel that I've insulted you in some way, then please let me know.

Quote:
In the late 90's when I was still in school and studying sound design I was taught that THX certificates didn't mean much.


Not necessarily, and that's what I've tried to express in my previous post. Like I've already said, THX-theaters are not born equal, and a theater doesn't necessarily need a THX-certification in order to sound good.

Quote:
A theater could easily get one when all their stuff was brand new, and THX wasn't very good at keeping an eye on things afterwords (even though they might have claimed they would). That is why some of the worst theaters around my school had nice shiney THX emblems at the entrance to all their screens.


Then perhaps it's the theater that is to be blamed in this case, and not THX. If the theater doesn't allow or doesn't bother to pay for regular certifications (which can be quite expensive), then it might not come as a surprise that the quality of the presentation has decayed over time. But showing the THX logo or THX animation in the theatre would then be illegal, and you could inform THX that they misuse their logo. A non-certified THX-theatre has no right to claim that it is.

Quote:
Either you work for THX, or you're some doofus who learned everything you know out of a book and therefore thinks that because you read, "THX regularly patrols their certified theaters" it must certainly BE TRUE!


Why the personal insults? I think you're going overboard here, especially when considering your status as moderator. I do not work for THX, but I know people who work at the local THX-theaters, and I know people who work as film projectionists. I've also studied film history for many years (and still do in my spare time), and the technological bit has always interested me.

Quote:
I love it when people start spouting off factoids in an argument to try to show off how smart they are (as if this somehow bolsters their point of view).


Then you're missing the point: I was making a relevant argument based on my own experiences and facts. If you simply think that I did this to 'show off', then you're mistaken.

Quote:
So if two theaters were built exactly the same, but only one bothered to get the certificate, the certified one would sound better?


No, of course not. You're not listening to what I'm saying. The point is that THX-certification is no requirement for good sound. For example, you can hire skilled technicians and engineers who are not employed by THX and build a high quality theatre. Then you won't have to pay THX-licences, although many theaters still prefer to ask for a certification because of the THX brand name.

Quote:
You're so weirdly infatuated with THX in this argument that you're barely able to recognize that some theaters might not feel the need to get certified even though it could easily do so.


I'm fully aware of that, and that's why I said in my previous post that a theatre can still sound good even though it's not THX-certified.

Quote:
All I was trying to do was give you and the others a possible heads up, but you had to freak out because I was badmouthing your precious THX.


Who's freaking out here? Who's being defensive here? Who's throwing personal insults at the other? I'm just asking.

Quote:
If you're actually that much unable to handle being wrong, I suggest you go somewhere else (like your mom's basement.)


I don't mind being wrong. I don't mind that other people might have different opinions. But given the negative tone in your response so far, and the sense that you didn't like that I corrected one of your original statements, perhaps you should ask yourself the same question?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:43 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


ScoreAficionado wrote:
Cocles wrote:
First off, settle down, Sancho.


I'm not angry at all. If my post made it sound as if I was angry or irritated, then you've misinterpreted my tone.


I don't think you're angry, I just think you're going way over board in defending something as silly as a THX certificate.

Quote:

Quote:
It's pretty damn obvious from your nick that you're a know-it-all pompous dingus who thinks you know more about soundtracks than anyone, even though you just got here.


I'm really surprised to hear this from a person who has been appointed to moderator. Personal attacks by other users is one thing, but name-calling from moderators is quite another matter.


Actually I'm an administrator, so go figure that one out.

The fact that you're surprised by my behavior is only testament to the fact that you did not feel it worth your time to acclimate yourself to the site by reading the FAQ's or even browsing through the forum a little before you started making your posts.

Quote:
So you base your judgment on people based on their nicks?


Hmm.... judging people by a name they have chosen for themselves.. gosh that wouldn't say anything about their character, would it? No, never.

Quote:

I'm not pretending that I know more about soundtracks than everyone else, but after having been a score enthusiast for over 20 years I do believe that I know something about scores. I think most people here do, and that's why we gather here in the first place, to share our views and knowledge with other enthusiasts.


The fact that you knowingly log onto a forum full of score aficionados yet see nothing pompous about making us all refer to you as "ScoreAficionado" says something about you as a person, whether you like it or not. The problem now isn't so much that you have an ego, as much as it's that you're desperately trying to deny it.

Quote:

Quote:
And the fact that you made a friggin' multi paragraph post just because someone said (and even admitted they could be wrong) that THX certificates might not mean much, ...


I'm not sure why you're suddenly referring to yourself as 'someone'? It was your post I responded to.


I referred to myself as "someone" because I was making a referrence from your perspective. And from your perspective I'm just some random dude. Your rebuttal to what I said wasn't personal. Hence, "someone" instead of "Cocles."

Yeah, I know. Reading comprehension is hard. Would you rather I refer to Myself as Me with a capital M?

Quote:

And I prefer to split my response into paragraphs when I reply to a specific post in order to make my post more readable.


I'm not referring to your grammar, I'm referring to the sheer amount of writing you typed down just to zealously defend a silly sound quality certificate.

Quote:

Besides, your paraphrasing is incorrect. You didn't say that "THX certificates might not mean much". You said that "Once a theater gains that certification it gets to keep it forever ... Perhaps THX has finally changed this". That's not the same thing.


What you're doing here is editing my post and taking it out of context in order to make its point less clear.

When you scroll back and look at my post, it's pretty obvious I was saying, "THX certificates might not mean much."

Quote:

You seem very defensive. If you feel that I've insulted you in some way, then please let me know.


I seem defensive? Last time I checked, you were the one who posted a book because someone inferred a sound certificate might not always be accurate. I nailed you for freaking out when I was just trying to give you a heads up.

Heck, I wasn't even trying for a fight. Stop confusing me with you. It makes you look like a hypocrite.

Quote:

Quote:
In the late 90's when I was still in school and studying sound design I was taught that THX certificates didn't mean much.


Not necessarily, and that's what I've tried to express in my previous post. Like I've already said, THX-theaters are not born equal, and a theater doesn't necessarily need a THX-certification in order to sound good.


I like how you accuse me of not being accurate when I paraphrase, only to then turn around and do it yourself.

Brilliant.

Quote:

Quote:
A theater could easily get one when all their stuff was brand new, and THX wasn't very good at keeping an eye on things afterwords (even though they might have claimed they would). That is why some of the worst theaters around my school had nice shiney THX emblems at the entrance to all their screens.


Then perhaps it's the theater that is to be blamed in this case, and not THX. If the theater doesn't allow or doesn't bother to pay for regular certifications (which can be quite expensive), then it might not come as a surprise that the quality of the presentation has decayed over time. But showing the THX logo or THX animation in the theatre would then be illegal, and you could inform THX that they misuse their logo. A non-certified THX-theatre has no right to claim that it is.


I wasn't debating the legality. No shit, it's illegal. My point is that lots of places do it, and THX tends to not police it. So their certificate aren't always accurate and therefore don't mean as much.

Are you really having this much trouble understanding my posts?

Quote:

Quote:
Either you work for THX, or you're some doofus who learned everything you know out of a book and therefore thinks that because you read, "THX regularly patrols their certified theaters" it must certainly BE TRUE!


Why the personal insults?


Because I call it like I see it. They're not random. I really think you're acting like (if not, actually are) a doofus.

Quote:

I think you're going overboard here, especially when considering your status as moderator.


Well, you see, I'm not a moderator, I'm an administrator..., so I don't have to be nice... actually the mods on here don't really need to be either.

Fact is, there are a lot worse moderators and admins out there than ones who just give you hell when they think you're being a dingus.

Quote:

I do not work for THX, but I know people who work at the local THX-theaters, and I know people who work as film projectionists.


Yes, and by speaking down about THX I am referring to your friends and trying to insult them. Very valiant of you to defend them.

Quote:

I've also studied film history for many years (and still do in my spare time), and the technological bit has always interested me.


Good for you.

Quote:

Quote:
I love it when people start spouting off factoids in an argument to try to show off how smart they are (as if this somehow bolsters their point of view).


Then you're missing the point: I was making a relevant argument based on my own experiences and facts. If you simply think that I did this to 'show off', then you're mistaken.


"I was making a relevant argument based on my own experiences and facts" is just a a fancy way of saying "I was trying to show off my own experiences and facts as a way to bolster my argument."

I applaud you.

Quote:

Quote:
So if two theaters were built exactly the same, but only one bothered to get the certificate, the certified one would sound better?


No, of course not. You're not listening to what I'm saying. The point is that THX-certification is no requirement for good sound. For example, you can hire skilled technicians and engineers who are not employed by THX and build a high quality theatre. Then you won't have to pay THX-licences, although many theaters still prefer to ask for a certification because of the THX brand name.


One again you're tweaking your paraphrasing. Nice job. In one post you've managed to be a hypocrite at least twice.

Quote:

Quote:
You're so weirdly infatuated with THX in this argument that you're barely able to recognize that some theaters might not feel the need to get certified even though it could easily do so.


I'm fully aware of that, and that's why I said in my previous post that a theatre can still sound good even though it's not THX-certified.


Still being pretty general with your paraphrasing, Sancho. What you're really doing is trying to tweak the tone so it sounds less ranting and more open to other points of view.

What I did was paraphrase something I inferred. What you're doing is scrambling to make yourself look good.

If you feel it necessary to stoop to these tactics perhaps you should just call it a night.

Quote:

Quote:
All I was trying to do was give you and the others a possible heads up, but you had to freak out because I was badmouthing your precious THX.


Who's freaking out here? Who's being defensive here? Who's throwing personal insults at the other? I'm just asking.


You're freaking out. You're being defensive. And I'm throwing insults.

I thought that was obvious?

Quote:

Quote:
If you're actually that much unable to handle being wrong, I suggest you go somewhere else (like your mom's basement.)


I don't mind being wrong. I don't mind that other people might have different opinions. But given the negative tone in your response so far, and the sense that you didn't like that I corrected one of your original statements, perhaps you should ask yourself the same question?


I corrected YOUR statement.
You freaked out.
I nailed you.
And then you made the post I'm replying to now.

Once again you're accusing me of something you yourself did.

Not only do I now think you're pompous and can't handle being corrected... I also think you're a hypocrite.

Bravo, amigo. Wink

See you on the threads.
ScoreAficionado
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:57 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Cocles wrote:
I don't think you're angry, I just think you're going way over board in defending something as silly as a THX certificate.


Overboard? In what manner? I never resorted to name calling, like you did.

You made an incorrect statement, and I explained that is was incorrect and why, in a factual, on-topic manner. Do you think supporting one's own arguments is the same as going overboard? Or perhaps you expect me to say you're wrong and do nothing to support my claim?

Quote:
Actually I'm an administrator, so go figure that one out.


Well, that makes your actions even more surprising.

Quote:
The fact that you're surprised by my behavior is only testament to the fact that you did not feel it worth your time to acclimate yourself to the site by reading the FAQ's or even browsing through the forum a little before you started making your posts.


Actually I did read the FAQs and I did sample the forum, but I didn't read many of your posts. Please don't make factual statements that are based on what you think.

But regardless of your general attitude, it's not appropriate for an administrator or moderator to resort to name-calling on users in public. At least that's my opinion. And that's what I mean when I think you're going overboard.

Quote:
Hmm.... judging people by a name they have chosen for themselves.. gosh that wouldn't say anything about their character, would it? No, never.


This is absurd. Do you really base your 'profiling' of people based on your subjective interpretation of their nicks rather than how people actually behave?

Quote:
The fact that you knowingly log onto a forum full of score aficionados yet see nothing pompous about making us all refer to you as "ScoreAficionado" says something about you as a person, whether you like it or not.


And what exactly does it tell you about me as a person?

This is becoming ridiculous. First of all, if you think it's so bad to quote my nick, then you're welcome to refer to me in a different way. Or perhaps you want me to change my nick?

Second, who's talking about 'pompous' here? 'ScoreAficionado' is a nick that can be seen in a funny, ironic light (at least it sounds better and more original to my ears than 'ScoreEnthusiast' or things along those lines), yet you apparently find it pompous and make major fuss about it.

Quote:
The problem now isn't so much that you have an ego, as much as it's that you're desperately trying to deny it.


Is this some sort of badly camouflaged reverse psychology trick? Are you trying to project your feelings and views on me?

Besides, who's ego is really on the line here? You, as an administrator and student of sound design (at least according to yourself), or me, as a newbie who not only corrected an incorrect statement you made, but who also happens to feature a nick that you find pompous?

Quote:
I referred to myself as "someone" because I was making a referrence from your perspective.


I'd suggest that you start seeing things from your own perspective, thank you.

Quote:
And from your perspective I'm just some random dude.


No, I thought you were a moderator. And I know perfectly well what a moderator is. Now I know you're an administrator, who's even higher up on the hierarchical ladder.

But it really doesn't change the fact that I nonetheless corrected your statement. Being a moderator or administrator doesn't mean you're right all the time. And users have the right to tell a moderator that they disagree or that he or she's incorrect.

Quote:
Your rebuttal to what I said wasn't personal.


True, it was not personal in the sense that I attacked you verbally. But it was personal in the sense that I commented on your statements.

Quote:
When you scroll back and look at my post, it's pretty obvious I was saying, "THX certificates might not mean much."


Pretty obvious to you perhaps, but not that obvious when I read what you've actually written.

Quote:
I seem defensive? Last time I checked, you were the one who posted a book because someone inferred a sound certificate might not always be accurate.


I carefully explained and followed up on your comments and questions. You, in contrast, took a defensive, hostile tone. And you're telling me that I 'freaked out'?

Quote:
Heck, I wasn't even trying for a fight.


No, perhaps you expected me to bow down and say "Yes, master"?

Quote:
I like how you accuse me of not being accurate when I paraphrase, only to then turn around and do it yourself.


I paraphrased myself very accurately. You only need to compare my paraphrase with what I actually wrote earlier.

Quote:
I wasn't debating the legality.


Again, you're missing my point: The point is that if a theater obviously fails to live up to the standards set by THX, then it can't be considered a THX-certified theatre, even though it says so on the front door. You talked about claims and responsibility, and I wanted to point out that perhaps THX is not to blame.

Quote:
My point is that lots of places do it


Such as? (please provide the name of the state and the name of the theatre) I'm not denying your claim, but I'd be interested to know which theaters you're talking about.

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So their certificate aren't always accurate and therefore don't mean as much.


And that's exactly why it's important to find out if the theater really is certified. As I stated in the beginning of my response to you: THX-theaters have to be recalibrated regularly if they want to renew their certification. They don't have to -- and your local theaters apparently haven't -- but then they have no right to call themselves a THX-theatre, and you end up basing your judgements on false premises.

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Because I call it like I see it. They're not random. I really think you're acting like (if not, actually are) a doofus.


So do you really think this discussion will become more constructive if we start throwing personal insults at each other? What kind of signal do you want to send to other users or newbies of this forum? That people are welcome to insult each other, or that only administrators have the right to do so? What sort of Netiquette do you actually follow?

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Well, you see, I'm not a moderator, I'm an administrator..., so I don't have to be nice... actually the mods on here don't really need to be either.


There you have it, I guess.

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Fact is, there are a lot worse moderators and admins out there than ones who just give you hell when they think you're being a dingus.


Are you aware of how weak that argument is? You're using worse moderators as some kind of yardstick for how 'badly' you can behave? It's like saying that because other people do bad things, so can I. Why not try to elevate your forum above the rest, instead of trying to follow in their footsteps?

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"I was making a relevant argument based on my own experiences and facts" is just a a fancy way of saying "I was trying to show off my own experiences and facts as a way to bolster my argument."


You seem to have a bad habit of twisting other people's statements into statements that you find negative. For once, try to look at what I'm actually saying, and not what you think I'm saying. You even admit yourself that my statements served to support my argument, which is actually what I set out to do.

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One again you're tweaking your paraphrasing. Nice job.


I challenge you to actually point out exactly how I've tweaked that paraphrase. Anyone who reads this thread can go back and verify that I've correctly paraphrased myself.

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I corrected YOUR statement.


No you didn't.That statement is so clearly wrong that I'm baffled that you even dare to say it. Simply go back and see for yourself: You wrote "Once a theater gains that certification it gets to keep it forever". Which was incorrect. If you'd been correct then you'd have corrected me. But you were wrong, and that's why I wrote "I'm afraid that's definitely not correct", and went on to explain why.

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Not only do I now think you're pompous and can't handle being corrected... I also think you're a hypocrite.


Well, I think this 'discussion' and your behaviour have been well documented on this thread by now. I don't really take offense of your insults or your constant, hilarious attempts at reverse psychology, because I see them as bad excuses and bad attempts at avoiding a constructive discussion. Instead of responding to my arguments, you simply refuse to confront them most of the time, and instead try to use them against me.

I'm not interested in prolonging this discussion, because I can clearly see where we're heading. So there's no need for you to respond to this message, after all. Trying to argue with an administrator who's abusing his rights and doesn't realize it won't do any good, I suppose.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:29 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


ScoreAficionado wrote:
Trying to argue with an administrator who's abusing his rights and doesn't realize it won't do any good, I suppose.


How exactly is voicing his opinion in the way he always does abusing his rights as an administrator? Rolling Eyes

Sounds to me like you are being a dingus.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:05 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


ScoreAficionado wrote:
Cocles wrote:
I don't think you're angry, I just think you're going way over board in defending something as silly as a THX certificate.


Overboard? In what manner? I never resorted to name calling, like you did.


Since when does overboard only involve name calling.

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You made an incorrect statement, and I explained that is was incorrect and why, in a factual, on-topic manner.


Dude, you're psycho. No joke. I honeslty think you're sick in the head. You're confusing stuff I did with stuff you did, and now you're saying I'm incorrect... and you're saying you proved it.

Where? All I said that could possibly be argued was that THX isn't good at patrolling, and the fact is around here they don't patrol very well. I'm in LA... you're in Norway. How the hell do you know what happens at my neighborhood theater?

Is this how you win arguments? You just say, "I win" and think the guy will take your word for it?

The fact is, since they don't patrol the theaters very well in Hollywood, I find it very difficult to believe they patrol them well out in the middle of Norway. Who knows? Maybe your theater's an exception. Either way, I can't prove your place isn't patrolled and you can't prove my is.

So where does this "I made an incorrect statement" come from? You're making up stuff in your head now, you lunatic.

My only point from the very beginning was that our listeners might want to check around on their own instead of depending souly on a certificate to figure out what the best theater is in their town for good audio quality. And for this you go agro?

I'm nailing you for being a punk. You however are nailing me because over a stupid audio quality certificate.

What is wrong with you?

Honestly, I'm asking. What is wrong with you?

I'm just trying to give our listeners a heads up, and you're jumping down my throat because I slightly smeared the good name of THX.

Really Score. What is wrong with you? I'd hate to think of what you do to people who disagree with you to your face.

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Do you think supporting one's own arguments is the same as going overboard? Or perhaps you expect me to say you're wrong and do nothing to support my claim?


I don't know what to expect. I think you're a weirdo. And this is the dumbest argument I've ever had on here. (And that's saying something.)

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Actually I'm an administrator, so go figure that one out.


Well, that makes your actions even more surprising.


Only because you're a very disturbed newb who did nothing to pick up on the vibe of this place before jumping in head first. You don't know who anyone is and that's no one's fault but your own.

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The fact that you're surprised by my behavior is only testament to the fact that you did not feel it worth your time to acclimate yourself to the site by reading the FAQ's or even browsing through the forum a little before you started making your posts.


Actually I did read the FAQs and I did sample the forum, but I didn't read many of your posts. Please don't make factual statements that are based on what you think.


Sorry, Score. I honestly didn't consider the possibility that someone could read my newbie faq and still somehow be surprised to discover in the forums that I'm a jerk. Especially since I flat out told you in the faq that I am one.

Once again, what's wrong with you?

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But regardless of your general attitude, it's not appropriate for an administrator or moderator to resort to name-calling on users in public. At least that's my opinion. And that's what I mean when I think you're going overboard.


Glad you finally explained. Personally I don't think it's your place as a newbie to tell us how we're supposed to act and work around here. If you don't like it go somewhere else.

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Hmm.... judging people by a name they have chosen for themselves.. gosh that wouldn't say anything about their character, would it? No, never.


This is absurd. Do you really base your 'profiling' of people based on your subjective interpretation of their nicks rather than how people actually behave?


Maybe you're new to the internet, but it's usually safe to assume around here that a person that goes by "MiDiGeT-KiLlEr" is going act differently than someone named "MissKitten".

Some nicks right off the bat say something. Like yours, which says you're pompous. And in this thread you've proved it. Go fig. You prove through your own example that this profiling works, and then call it absurd.


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The fact that you knowingly log onto a forum full of score aficionados yet see nothing pompous about making us all refer to you as "ScoreAficionado" says something about you as a person, whether you like it or not.


And what exactly does it tell you about me as a person?


I believe I've already explained this, several times. Are you blind?

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This is becoming ridiculous. First of all, if you think it's so bad to quote my nick, then you're welcome to refer to me in a different way. Or perhaps you want me to change my nick?


Well, since you haven't noticed me calling you "Sancho", I guess you are blind.

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Second, who's talking about 'pompous' here? 'ScoreAficionado' is a nick that can be seen in a funny, ironic light (at least it sounds better and more original to my ears than 'ScoreEnthusiast' or things along those lines), yet you apparently find it pompous and make major fuss about it.


It's arrogant. The word aficionado implies one is superior to the average everyday enthusiast.

Your nick is arrogant, because it is boastful. Simple as that.

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The problem now isn't so much that you have an ego, as much as it's that you're desperately trying to deny it.


Is this some sort of badly camouflaged reverse psychology trick? Are you trying to project your feelings and views on me?


Eh, no. I tried to give our listeners a heads up and for some strange reason you took it as a personal offense and attacked me. Saying I was WRONG! As if you some how magically knew for fact that theaters thousands of miles away from you are regularly patrolled.

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Besides, who's ego is really on the line here? You, as an administrator and student of sound design (at least according to yourself), or me, as a newbie who not only corrected an incorrect statement you made, but who also happens to feature a nick that you find pompous?


Once again. You're a newb. Every regular here knows my ego isn't going to be phased by this.

Little life advice for you: Know your audience.

If you really want to talk about ego, I'd like to discuss you.

You show up at a website. Brand new.

You make some posts.

And the first time you really come in contact with an admin you attack with everything you've got.

You even go as far as to criticize my work ethic when the fact is that the only reason you're able to say these things is because I'm ultimately letting you.

Ego? What does it say about my ego that I'm letting you take shots at it. And what does it say about yours that you're willing to jeopardize your place on this site (that you obviously enjoy) all because of some two sentence footnote you could have just as easily ignored or just said, "Well I guess it's different over there."

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I referred to myself as "someone" because I was making a referrence from your perspective.


I'd suggest that you start seeing things from your own perspective, thank you.


Amazingly I think this sentence is the worst of all. You're so desperate to fling stuff at me that now I'm being attacked for using common means of conversation?

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And from your perspective I'm just some random dude.


No, I thought you were a moderator.


Do you personally know me? No. Then I'm just some random dude. And the fact that you think I'm a Moderator when it says Administrator above my head, says something.

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And I know perfectly well what a moderator is. Now I know you're an administrator, who's even higher up on the hierarchical ladder.


Yeah, you can read. Good job.

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But it really doesn't change the fact that I nonetheless corrected your statement. Being a moderator or administrator doesn't mean you're right all the time.


I never said it did.

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And users have the right to tell a moderator that they disagree or that he or she's incorrect.


Yes. And newbies should know their place. You're new here. It's not your place to suggest things when you don't even know what's going on.

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Your rebuttal to what I said wasn't personal.


True, it was not personal in the sense that I attacked you verbally. But it was personal in the sense that I commented on your statements.


Wow, you're really desperately looking for more arguments.

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When you scroll back and look at my post, it's pretty obvious I was saying, "THX certificates might not mean much."


Pretty obvious to you perhaps, but not that obvious when I read what you've actually written.


I've been questioning your reading comprehension for a couple posts... now it's confirmed. You really need to learn to read.

Personally I think you're just saying "it's not obvious", because if it was that would weaken your argument.

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I seem defensive? Last time I checked, you were the one who posted a book because someone inferred a sound certificate might not always be accurate.


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I carefully explained and followed up on your comments and questions. You, in contrast, took a defensive, hostile tone. And you're telling me that I 'freaked out'?


On my comments? I gave a 2 sentence heads up.

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Heck, I wasn't even trying for a fight.


No, perhaps you expected me to bow down and say "Yes, master"?


I didn't expect you to comment at all. I wasn't even directly talking to you.

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I like how you accuse me of not being accurate when I paraphrase, only to then turn around and do it yourself.


I paraphrased myself very accurately. You only need to compare my paraphrase with what I actually wrote earlier.


If you say so.

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I wasn't debating the legality.


Again, you're missing my point:


LOL, when I said we're not debating legality I was saying you didn't get my point.

So now we're saying "You're not getting my point..." "NO! You're not getting my point!" "NO!! You're not getting MY point!"

Give me a break, Score.

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The point is that if a theater obviously fails to live up to the standards set by THX, then it can't be considered a THX-certified theatre,


And how is the audience to know until they actually go in? If it has the THX logo next to it in the newspaper listings then as far as the audience is concerned it IS a THX certified theater.

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even though it says so on the front door. You talked about claims and responsibility, and I wanted to point out that perhaps THX is not to blame.


I never said it was, you doofus.

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My point is that lots of places do it


Such as? (please provide the name of the state and the name of the theatre) I'm not denying your claim, but I'd be interested to know which theaters you're talking about.


Are you for real? Are you going to fly out here and go to the theaters? If so go to the crappy older theaters in Los Angeles, and Orange County that sport THX logo's. They're easy to find.

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So their certificate aren't always accurate and therefore don't mean as much.


And that's exactly why it's important to find out if the theater really is certified.


That's what I said in my original heads up you dillhole! I'm sorry if your reading compresion is so remdial you couldn't see that.

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As I stated in the beginning of my response to you: THX-theaters have to be recalibrated regularly if they want to renew their certification. They don't have to -- and your local theaters apparently haven't -- but then they have no right to call themselves a THX-theatre, and you end up basing your judgements on false premises.


I think I'm safe basing my premises on the theaters located at the heart of the movie industry of the western world.

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Because I call it like I see it. They're not random. I really think you're acting like (if not, actually are) a doofus.


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So do you really think this discussion will become more constructive if we start throwing personal insults at each other? What kind of signal do you want to send to other users or newbies of this forum?


They seem to be doing good so far.

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That people are welcome to insult each other, or that only administrators have the right to do so? What sort of Netiquette do you actually follow?


If you're weren't new here, you could answer these questions yourself.

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Well, you see, I'm not a moderator, I'm an administrator..., so I don't have to be nice... actually the mods on here don't really need to be either.


There you have it, I guess.


Yep.

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Fact is, there are a lot worse moderators and admins out there than ones who just give you hell when they think you're being a dingus.


Are you aware of how weak that argument is? You're using worse moderators as some kind of yardstick for how 'badly' you can behave? It's like saying that because other people do bad things, so can I. Why not try to elevate your forum above the rest, instead of trying to follow in their footsteps?


No, all I was really saying is that you're spoiled. If you think I'm absolutely horrid, you really haven't been around the block.

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"I was making a relevant argument based on my own experiences and facts" is just a a fancy way of saying "I was trying to show off my own experiences and facts as a way to bolster my argument."


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You seem to have a bad habit of twisting other people's statements into statements that you find negative. For once, try to look at what I'm actually saying, and not what you think I'm saying.


You say I don't see things from your perspective and that I misquote you?

Okay.

Here's one:

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I'd suggest that you start seeing things from your own perspective, thank you.


Last time I saw things from your perspective you got snotty with me. That's a direct quote. Don't contradict yourself.

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You even admit yourself that my statements served to support my argument, which is actually what I set out to do.

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One again you're tweaking your paraphrasing. Nice job.


I challenge you to actually point out exactly how I've tweaked that paraphrase. Anyone who reads this thread can go back and verify that I've correctly paraphrased myself.


Or they can go back and see how when paraphrase your own previous words you tweak the tone in a way to make it seem like you originally said it in a way that was much less ranting and more open to other ideas.

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I corrected YOUR statement.


No you didn't.That statement is so clearly wrong that I'm baffled that you even dare to say it. Simply go back and see for yourself: You wrote "Once a theater gains that certification it gets to keep it forever". Which was incorrect.


How can you know that's incorrect? How can you know what happens in the theaters where I'm located? How can you know what happens at the theaters located where our other listeners live?

You can't. And the fact that at least SOME theaters keep their certificates forever (whether it's legal or not) means our listeners should be careful and decide for themselves which theater is best in their neighborhood, by going and listening for themselves.


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If you'd been correct then you'd have corrected me. But you were wrong, and that's why I wrote "I'm afraid that's definitely not correct", and went on to explain why.


Fact is, you're not omniscient. Although you apparently think you are. You're sick in the head, Score.

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Not only do I now think you're pompous and can't handle being corrected... I also think you're a hypocrite.


Well, I think this 'discussion' and your behaviour have been well documented on this thread by now.


As have yours.

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I don't really take offense of your insults or your constant, hilarious attempts at reverse psychology,


Where on earth did you get that I'm trying reverse psychology?

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because I see them as bad excuses and bad attempts at avoiding a constructive discussion. Instead of responding to my arguments, you simply refuse to confront them most of the time, and instead try to use them against me.


The only way your argument can stand is if you know better than I do how the theaters are run in my own neighboorhood. Which you don't. You're not all knowing.

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I'm not interested in prolonging this discussion, because I can clearly see where we're heading. So there's no need for you to respond to this message, after all. Trying to argue with an administrator who's abusing his rights and doesn't realize it won't do any good, I suppose.


Fact is, it's Jeric and the founding member's place to set the tone of this website and not yours. If you don't like how things are run here, leave.

What can I say. You're the absolute worst member of SST we've had in months. You created a usenet style flamewar on our forum all because I suggested our listeners go out and listen for themselves to find the theater that's right for them instead of relying souly on a certificate.

Personally, if this is the kind of stuff that sets you off I think you should leave.

I'm going to be asking the other members what they think. Ultimately though it's really up to Jeric, Greywolf, Sensei, Cal and Me.

Personally, I think you should go to a different site and save us the trouble.

Last edited by Cocles on Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:07 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


As you're asking for opinions cocles. I still stand by my mine.

He didn't do anything wrong except for disagreeing with you. He kept his "voice" down and never even as much as hinted an insult.

Reading the whole thing I find it funny, cause I see many things you accuse Score of in your posts.

It can't be a crime to have a different opinion as an admin, voicing his opinion and trying his best to come up with facts to prove his point.

If anyone started a flamewar it was you.

If you want to come up with the "Buscemi doesn't like me" thing. It's got nothing to do with that. I just see unjustness here and want to voice my opinion. I don't like you. True. But I respected you for the fact that you're able to ban ppl (for disagreements) but haven't done. Even though it looks you take things quite personal.

I only hope other ppl will voice their "objective" opinion too.

Let's see how you'll turn that one around to go on and insult me....

If your behaving is an indication on how this place is run like, than I'm going to keep some distance to the chat and the board which is a shame as this place is technically speaking pure greatness.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:44 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Buscemi, thanks for you opinion.

Right now in the chat though I've got a room full of regulars who disagree with you.

The main debate we're having is whether or not we owe score a warning before we ban him.

As far an insult, how's this. I expect you to side with Score. You personally don't like me, and just like Score you're a newbie who just showed up and doesn't "get" this place yet.

Of course you empathize with him.

As a personal note to you, I have a feeling you thought I was personally offended when you didn't see anything funny about the newbie faq.

I wasn't laughing because I was offended. I was laughing because if you don't "get" the newbie faq then you're probably not going to have a very good time here, since you're not going to match our sense of humor. Maybe you should keep this place at arm's length.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:48 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Quote:
It can't be a crime to have a different opinion as an admin, voicing his opinion etc.


Nope. But I don't really like how Score did it. I still don't get why he didn't just respond like this:

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Be careful though. Once a theater gains that certification it gets to keep it forever (even after the speakers have worn out and the equiptment has gone to hell). Perhaps THX has finally changed this. Hopefully they have.

They have.

Period.


Back on (side-)topic:

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Either way, it's always best to just go to all the movie theaters in your area until you find the one with the best sound.


That's by far the best statement in this thread IMO.

(Be careful where you sit though. Every cinema has a sweet spot where the sound quality's the best. When I was still working at a local cinema, I had a guy complaining about the sound quality - he's been sitting on the left side in the back row, right under a surround speaker... Confused )
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:43 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


wow !
Well, my own judgement is that afficionado cannot be taken to task for posting pages of praise to speakers, earphones, and THX, and to his own trip to neverneverland when listening to music, he can only be offered the first prize for the most boring post in the last six months.
Jumping all over Cocles in a know-it-all tone for disagreeing could be put down to brain dead newbie disease or insane courage.
Accusing him of abusing his rights to be the most obnoxious admin of the site... erh... Very Happy let me try again.
of abusing admin rights just by answering in his own inimitable style... isn't it a case of "I can criticise your ethics as much as I want but you have to be nice to me because you're an admin !"
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:28 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


shock wrote:
Nope. But I don't really like how Score did it. I still don't get why he didn't just respond like this:


If you'd read my post carefully you'd seen that I tried to explain why it was not working that way. I've also tried to explain several times that I'm not the sort of person who simply says "Yes, it's a fact. Period.". I prefer to back up my arguments and statements with explanations.

Besides, the statement you suggested has a bombastic tone that I try to avoid. And I honestly don't think that taking such an approach would've made things any better.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:31 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Caray wrote:
... he can only be offered the first prize for the most boring post in the last six months.


Thanks for the prize, but I'm actually not running a popularity contest here. THX may not be of much interest to you, but then again nobody forces you to read the thread.
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