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 zirael
Commander
Joined: Feb 05, 2004
Member#: 4924
Posts: 795
Location: North Carolina
   
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 Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject: Long non-VIP request times |
 
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I know that the site needs more VIP listeners to help financially support SST and it would be nice to keep the queue times 2-2.5 hours, but isn't 12 hours rather long for non-VIPs?
I personally thought the 3-4 hour request times were restrictive enough for non-VIPs if VIPs were mindful and didn't request so often. I think upping the request times to 1/60 for VIPs earlier in the day is fair if more non-VIPs can benefit and will stick around SST instead of getting totally turned off.
I wanted to see other people's suggestions on how to increase VIP membership, retain new members, and reduce queue times without resorting to 12 hour requests. Please keep this to constructive comments please, but non-VIPs really should speak up here or email the admins if you're unhappy.
Last edited by zirael on Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Caliburn
Guest
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Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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A 3+ hour is not acceptible for us. Even more than 2 hours is already too much in my point of view. We would them deny a large group to request who are not online after three hours. This is an invisible group to us but they are certainly there.
We could have done two things:
1) Up vip time
2) Up non-vip time
With the first option it would not have been fair to our vips who gave money to l365 to become a VIP.
SST is a radiostation where requesting is a priviledge. People often forget that. |
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Nate
Captain
Joined: Dec 12, 2004
Member#: 8729
Posts: 1424
Location: Here and NOT There
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Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Very recently I was a Non-VIP and decided to become a VIP so I know where you are coming from zirael. I personally agree with how they have things now and it did convince me to become a VIP. That being said, I am definitely willing to request songs for Non-VIP's. I am sure many other VIP's are more than willing to do the same. Like Caliburn said, being able to request is a priviledge and this new requesting structure is what they needed to do to preserve the viability of SST and I fully support them. |
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 Stealth
Cadet 1
Joined: Aug 09, 2005
Member#: 11177
Posts: 1
Location: Burlington, ON. Canada
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Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Can you do requesting credits to online individuals. For example...If you are a VIP member, you can get X amount of request credits per month, which can be used anytime they like provided they are not within a specific amount of time (to prevent people from requesting entire cd's in order) This will allow people to request when they want more or less, but limit the amount....maybe longer tracks can take up more credits. I am fairly new to this site, but I love it. I listen to it at work and it helps relax me. I have enjoyed requesting as a non vip member, but I do find it a pain to see 3+ hour long waits to request.
Just an idea.
Stealth
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Stealth |
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Johnny_Cage
Commander
Joined: Apr 27, 2005
Member#: 9964
Posts: 589
Location: Michigan, USA
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Posted:
Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Caliburn wrote: |
We could have done two things:
1) Up vip time
2) Up non-vip time |
Why couldn't you have done both?
Rogue brought up a good point in chat the other day. The VIP's are just as guilty, if not more guilty, for the long queue lengths than the non-VIP's. That's why we still have three hour waits every day. Increasing the request times for VIP's doesn't mean that they can't still request more often, which is enough of a privalege in itself.
_________________
"You have been chosen to represent Earth in Mortal Kombat. Be warned. Although your souls are protected from Shao Kahn's evil: your lives are not. I cannot interfere any longer as your Earth is now ruled by the Outworld gods." |
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Caliburn
Guest
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:17 am Post subject: |
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We still control the VIP times. If the VIP's are "misbehaving" (mark the quotes) we up their time. In my book VIPs can request whenever and what ever they want.
As we speak we trying to set up guidelines for 'VIP request etiquette'. These will be guidelines not rules. |
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Rogue
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Member#: 9061
Posts: 57
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Okay, I was unaware of this thread. I e-mailed Jeric the other day, as he asked me too.
For the sake of facilitating this discussion, I want to go ahead and post my clarifications here as well. It's long, but I wanted to communicate my ideas with clarity and logic.
Please note, the situation is far from as dire as it was. I was pleasantly surprised to see the request time drop yesterday and I hope it can remain at this level as much as possible.
However, for the record, and to clarify my position, which I feel was misconstrued both times I brought this up in the chat, I want to go ahead and post this.
Please, don't take any of this personally, anybody.
Okay, Jeric, I know you’re extremely busy, so I’ll get straight to the point.
I think thus far it has been well proven by the fact that the queue continues to climb to over three hours, at least occasionally, that the queue length is not dictated by Non-VIPs, but rather by the VIPs. This seems to be common sense. Even prior to this, a non-VIP could get in two requests (three on a good day) in an average work day, while the non-VIPs were and are able to request quite a bit more than that.
Changing the non-VIP request time seems like a mistake as it punishes those who are not at fault, or at least, not mostly at fault. VIP request time continues to stay well under an hour, at least during the times I am on and as long as it remains at this level, the queue will lengthen and shorten based on something very much beyond your control: the attitudes of the VIPs. Thus, one day, for example Thursday of this week, the queue may stay under two hours for much of the day. While on another day, for example today, it may shoot to over three hours in a matter of moments.
In short, I feel that upping the non-VIP request time will not make an appreciable difference, save in perhaps frightening the VIPs into less requesting.
You will say that VIPs are just that. And you are correct and their request time should indeed be smaller than that of Non-VIPs by a ratio. But at this point, there is no ratio, at least not one simple enough for me to discern. Non-VIP time has exploded to an incredible degree, while VIP request time continues to bounce around the same numbers as before (occasionally as low as ten minutes, never over an hour). This seems to me to be incredibly unfair. There should be a concrete relationship between the two request times, in my opinion.
Now, that’s the thrust of my main problem, but I want to quickly address a couple of other things.
First of all, please believe that I am not trying to stir up trouble and I’m sorry if I caused things to get heated in the chat on a couple of occasions. On both occasions, what lead to my anger was not the policy that I address above, but the fact that my opinion was belittled by members of the administration team.
On the first occasion, a remark was made that referenced my complaints as ‘whining.’ I was not whining, I was stating a philosophical problem I had with the rules. This has less to do with MY ability to request and more to do with the fact that I feel Non-VIPs as a whole are being massively disrespected.
The second time it was stated that those who complained had no conception of what it takes to run a website. I have, in point of fact, been on the administration teams of two websites, one very large with members numbering into six digits, the other a small operation with less than fifty members. I think that my experiences on both of those sites have given me much insight into what it takes to run websites, regardless of size or scope. I don’t trumpet the fact that I was a moderator on The Force.net, because that’s not important. But it becomes important when people accuse me of not understanding what it takes to moderate a website.
So, I understand the headache of a “problem user” and I don’t want to be one of those to you or to Streaming Soundtracks.
I do love this website. People pointed out that I do not support it financially. That is true. However, I attempted, in my own way, to support it as I could: I tried to request in a representative fashion and request tracks that no one else requested. I regularly requested tracks under thirty seconds long, something I rarely see anyone else do, even those who could request much more often that I could. And I will continue to occasionally do so, though now that I get only one request a day, it’ll be harder to motivate myself to do so.
And I feel that this new policy of longer non-VIP request times is a slap at my contributions, a sort of “thanks, but no thanks.” I understand that it is not, but that is how it feels.
Also, one major worry that was brought up was when a member of the administration stated that this was a radio station and not a personal playlist. I have, over the time I have been here, watched as requests grow slimmer and slimmer. This is a necessary side effect, I suppose of a larger community. But I fear the day when we will be unable to request. This would, in my opinion, be a travesty and I hope that day never comes.
A problem brought up without a solution offered is worthless, so here are my ideas for possible rectifying of the inequity of the situation.
1. Keep the non-VIP request time at twelve hours or twenty four, but also increase the VIP request time to a more balanced equivalent, say four hours or six. (I think this will probably be the one that will keep the queue time down, in a way that the current policy cannot)
2. Lower the non-VIP request time to a more balanced time: say six hours or five.
In short, balance is key, to my way of thinking. Equity is another word. Fairness is yet another. I think that is key.
If you choose not to implement these strategies, I will still be here and I will still request once a day or once a week or whatever you decide to set it as. I will NOT become a VIP, simply because my situation dictates that I cannot at the moment.
I have written this in large part to clarify my position. After the attacks on my position in the chat, I feel the need to express that I am not whining or speaking out of ignorance or a knee jerk reaction.
If you choose to take any of this into consideration, it would be greatly appreciated. If you do not, it is still greatly appreciated that you took time out of your incredibly busy schedule to sit down and listen to what one of your users had to say. For that, I do thank you most sincerely and honestly. |
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 j2brown
Commodore
Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Member#: 9
Posts: 3188
Location: Sterling, VA
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:24 am Post subject: |
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The credits idea sounds good, but I don't know anything about the implementation of such a thing. It doesn't sound like it's trivial. I had the beginnings of a thought about assigning days of the week to VIPs, but you may have the same problems there. Or perhaps splitting VIPs into even/odd day groups. Just throwing out ideas here.
jeff
sdg |
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zirael
Commander
Joined: Feb 05, 2004
Member#: 4924
Posts: 795
Location: North Carolina
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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I was glad that the request times went down today to 4 hours for non-VIPs and that the admins are thinking about various ways to reduce VIP requesting, including the VIP etiquette guide.
Many of the suggestions offered here are ones I would be comfortable with, including thinking about a more equitable request time ratio between non-VIPs and VIPs, the credits- although I'm not sure how difficult implementation would be, or VIPs voluntarily requesting on even/odd days, based on where their username falls in the 1st or 2nd half of the alphabet. I'm also wondering if VIPs are willing to have request times on their end of 1/90 to 1/120 in order to have a site that is more inclusive.
To clarify, I am currently VIP, but I also have different philosophical views on where the site is going. I have no problems with everyone required to be VIP or pay a subscription if the station is for profit, but since it is nonprofit, I hope request access will be relatively open to non-VIPs until the change occurs. The non-VIPs add fresh ideas, types of requests, participate in the forums and donate to the site, so they should not be disregarded while the station is going through what I see as 'growing pains.' In my view, non-VIPs are more likely to stick around and eventually become VIP if they feel a sense of autonomy and don't have to constantly ask for requests. |
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Twopop 
Rear Admiral (Ambassador)
Joined: Jul 21, 2004
Member#: 7382
Posts: 2673
Location: Oregon
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Rogue wrote: |
| ..balance is key, to my way of thinking. Equity is another word. Fairness is yet another. |
Hear, hear, Rogue! It was also great to read about your extensive background in running websites.
| zirael wrote: |
| I was glad that the request times went down today to 4 hours for non-VIPs and that the admins are thinking about various ways to reduce VIP requesting, including the VIP etiquette guide. |
I would like to see more equity between VIPs and non-VIPs, too. It's tough, though, to make the VIP perks rewarding enough that ppl want to sign up, and yet keep the site a place non-VIPs feel a connection to as well.
Gosh, I hope we don't have to get into a complicated merits or odd/even thing. High request times for VIPs is just fine with me!! Maybe after a few months of that (and the Request Etiquette Guidelines), we'll all get used to it and the high restrictions won't be necessary. *crossing fingers* 
Last edited by Twopop on Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tjoe
Commander
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Member#: 6471
Posts: 553
Location: Second City
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Awhile back, there was talk of trying to get the system to automatically adjust request times based on queue length. I believe that it became to difficult to implement of something, but I have noticed that many of us VIPs already practice some form of request-etiquette based on queue length.
For instance, when the queue is close to 1 hour, I try to toss in as many tracks for myself and for others as I can (to keep SAM at bay). Once the queue gets to 2 hours, I only put something in if it pertains to the topic at hand or if a non-VIP needs a song put in. When the queue gets over 2.5 hours, you'll seldom see me add to the list except for very special reasons. Queue over 3 hours and I do not add anything, no matter what.
I have noticed that many (but not all) of the regular chatters that are VIPs do similar self-monitoring.
Yes, non-VIPs often suffer from not being able to request something themselves. However, most of us VIPs are very happy to put something in the queue for non-VIPs. Often times we ask if anyone wants something put in and we get no reply. But, because the VIP times are often quite low, we can happliy offer these up, while helping to keep the queue low.
(edited due to a keyboard macro accidentally submitting this before I was finished  )
_________________
"insert your own clever quote here.... I'm too lazy to do it." |
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Johnny_Cage
Commander
Joined: Apr 27, 2005
Member#: 9964
Posts: 589
Location: Michigan, USA
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Posted:
Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Great post, Rogue. I agree with everything you said.
_________________
"You have been chosen to represent Earth in Mortal Kombat. Be warned. Although your souls are protected from Shao Kahn's evil: your lives are not. I cannot interfere any longer as your Earth is now ruled by the Outworld gods." |
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Asriana
Commander
Joined: Aug 10, 2005
Member#: 11184
Posts: 945
Location: Michigan, USA
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Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Tjoe wrote: |
| For instance, when the queue is close to 1 hour, I try to toss in as many tracks for myself and for others as I can (to keep SAM at bay). Once the queue gets to 2 hours, I only put something in if it pertains to the topic at hand or if a non-VIP needs a song put in. When the queue gets over 2.5 hours, you'll seldom see me add to the list except for very special reasons. Queue over 3 hours and I do not add anything, no matter what. |
I'm very similar to Tjoe - in the early morning I get what requests I'd like to hear in, but once it hits 2 hours, I very seldom request. I leave my requests open for the non-vips. If you see me on and need a request(for you non-vips)please feel free to ask me. I'm always willing  |
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 eduardofpl
Ensign
Joined: May 25, 2005
Member#: 10333
Posts: 20
Location: São José dos Campos/SP - Brasil
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Posted:
Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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I belive that this lag is compatible.
But of course, I become more happy with a 2 hours lag only.
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Eduardo Fávero Pacheco da Luz |
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TreeBob
Commander
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Member#: 5527
Posts: 671
Location: Gatineau, QC
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Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Rogue thanks for the post. I agree with all your comments. Whoever put you down in the chat sucks. Its happened to many of us in the past so don't take it too seriously. Just be glad Cocles doesn't come around anymore
Non-VIP power!
Later
_________________
Pixie "Actually Tree, I wasn't referring to you as a dingus, but seems like you might just qualify as one now!" |
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