| VIP |
|---|
Subscribe to become a VIP member of SST!
· Request More Often
· Unshared Requests
· Request Countdown Timer
· Request Ready Indicator
· Your Request History
· Access To The VIP Forum
· Add More Favorites
:: Click Here To Upgrade ::
:: Give VIP as a Gift ::
|
|
|
|
View previous topic ::
View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
    
|
 Posted:
Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:45 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
 
|
Imagine if we could time travel and the paradoxes it would create.
If you as a person take up a certain volume of space, what would happen if you were to travel into the future and occupy that volume of space?
Or even worse, if you were to travel back in time and (for the purpose of this analysis) kill your mother before she met your father, would you simply not exist? What would happen? How would the universe account for your being?
These are just some random thoughts that began popping up in my head. Any comments?
***Coc Note: As promised, proofread. Merry Xmas yeh bastard.***
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
|
 |
 Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
    |
|
Posted:
Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:25 pm Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
Whoops, I seem to have stumbled into NerdyForums.com, sorry. |
|
|
|
EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
|
|
Posted:
Sat Dec 28, 2002 6:34 pm Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
No Cocles, not the nerdy forum; just the super, dope cool forum.
I'll follow up on the actual time travel paradox later, as it is kind of late.
You have to remember two things about the earth and its orbit.
1. You would need a significant loss of mass to make what you are describing happen. If we emptied all of the people, animals and resources from the earth into space, it would still only be a small fraction of the loss of mass needed for us to be pulled into the sun.
2. Space has been expanding ever since the big bang, and continues to expand to this very day. So the distance between the earth and the sun is constantly increasing. So, whatever loss of mass the earth experiences is made up (in terms of orbit) by the expansion of space.
Does that make any sense ? *C
***El Coc Note: Now it does. Proofread for your Holiday cheer.***
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
|
|
|
zeverken
Ensign
Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Member#: 260
Posts: 22
Location: belgium
|
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 29, 2002 3:47 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
How could you travel back in time now if it were to kill you mother? The paradox would start working from the moment the intention to go to the past to kill your mother excists.
If you were to travel to the future, the future would already know you were coming... I mean, the first time travel would be like the apollo 11 landing, things like that just don't go by unnoticed in history, you know.
Time/Space is just something you don't wanna screw around with... What about this. The earth had a certain mass when it was formed. And that mass defines the orbit around the sun, right? Now, since the start of spaceflight, we have been launching stuff (matter created from the natural resources of the earth) into space, thus reducing the mass of the earth... Now if i'm not mistaking, if the earth loses mass (if it gets "lighter") that would give the sun's gravity more grip on us. So our orbit around the sun gets smaller and smaller until we are crash into it. Not that it's gonna go that fast, the sun is gonna be burnt out in 6 million year (or is it 60?) anyway...
_________________
Friendship is like a glass so handle it with care, once its broken its hard to repair. |
|
|
|
zeverken
Ensign
Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Member#: 260
Posts: 22
Location: belgium
|
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:21 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
Now, we also have been landing stuff on the moon. The bottom part of a LEM stays on the moon. There is also scientifuc equipment left on the moon. We have been decreasing Earth's mass and increasing the lunar mass... In other words, the gravitational pull of the earth has decreased (less mass) and the gravitanional pull of the moon has increased (more mass). This change in gravity fields would explain those freak-floods and crazy weather-things we have been seeing lately...
If the distance between sun and earth (a so called Astronomical Unit) is increasing, this would make the year longer because the orbital velocity stays constant.
Hmmm, doesn't this explain greenhouse effect? We are exposed to the sun longer and longer thus warming up earth...
_________________
Friendship is like a glass so handle it with care, once its broken its hard to repair. |
|
|
|
EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
|
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 29, 2002 1:24 pm Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
You are defiantly right; changes in our climate and environment can be linked to these anomalies in space. However, you also have to understand that space is enormously large (not infinite). So, you could think of our entire solar system as nothing but a speck on an elastic band. Even if you were to stretch that elastic noticeably (to simulate expanding space) it would have little effect on the dot that represents our galaxy.
So this expansion of space can be a cause of environmental chages, but not the only one. *C
***Ze Coc Note: I let "defiantly" stay because it actually does work within the sentence.***
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
|
|
|
Yvond
Lieutenant
Joined: Apr 02, 2002
Member#: 39
Posts: 178
|
|
Posted:
Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:11 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
You guys are hilarious.
Don't worry about the earth getting lighter--as I recall, it gains about 2 tons a year from space dust alone being drawn into the earth's gravitational well. And that's just accounts for space dust, let alone other things that routinely get pulled in.
In other words, it's getting heavier, not lighter.
The problems we are seeing on the earth are due to more fundamental issues, not gravitational pertubations. A 1-2 ton change, either way, is so insignificant that I don't even think the change in the orbital distance from the sun would be measureable...we're talking about a change of 1 part in 10^(21) when compared to the earth's mass--that's about a part per thousand trillion trillion.
I'd be more worried about the sun going supernova if I were you...
Uhhh, EyeDae, as a final comment, do you really want to be known as a "Super Dope"? I think I'd rather be a nerd. LOL. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Y |
|
|
|
Hart
Lieutenant
Joined: Apr 17, 2002
Member#: 53
Posts: 148
Location: Austin, Texas
|
|
Posted:
Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:25 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
read about the "Billiard Ball Paradox", should explain your question of pre-conception suicide.
_________________
"Now, listen up you primitive screwheads!" "This is my BOOM STICK, you got THAT!" |
|
|
|
EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
|
|
Posted:
Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:55 pm Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
Sounds interesting. I will be sure to read it and get back to you.
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
|
|
|
Wolf
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 16
Posts: 448
Location: Right behind you...
|
|
Posted:
Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:23 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
How did this topic start?
Did Eyedea write it right after seeing "back to the future"?
_________________
Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate... leads to suffering. |
|
|
|
Zack
Ensign
Joined: Oct 30, 2002
Member#: 256
Posts: 45
Location: Philadelphia, PA
|
|
Posted:
Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:16 pm Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
Ugh. I hate these kinds of topics because we often end up making ourselves look like fools, with everyone trying to correct everyone else and then making matters even more complicated. But here I go, getting involved ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
First of all, yes, it's been established that the change in the Earth's and the moon's masses is so incredibly insignificant that it won't affect the orbit. But it just so happens that even if half the entire planet vanished completely, the orbit would not be affected at all!! Here's a little physics lesson...
You know how all objects fall at the same rate? At our distance from the Earth's core, gravity pulls all objects "down" at 9.80 meters (~32 feet) per "second squared." This means that after 1 second, the object is falling at 9.8m/s, and after another second the object is falling at 19.6m/s. Some objects slow up due to air resistance. Depending on your altitude on the planet, gravity's pull varies by a centimeter or a millimeter per second squared. In space, the Earth pulls on the moon and the moon pulls on the earth--relative to the Earth, the moon is simply orbiting it. Because it's so much farther from the planet than we are, gravity's pull is not as strong. In fact, the moon is moving parallel to the Earth at just the right velocity at any given point in time, so that as Earth tries pulling the moon "down," it ends up swinging the body around like a yo-yo. Both the Earth and the moon pull on each other and orbit each other in this way, and both the Earth and the moon orbit the sun in the same way.
What does that all mean? Mass is not important at all when it comes to one celestial body orbiting another. As long as the body's SPEED and DISTANCE remains relatively constant, then we don't have to worry.
What you MIGHT worry about is the result of launching all these rockets and satellites off of the Earth and into space and other planets. Newton's third law of physics states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you try to step off of a boat in the water and onto a dock, you'll feel your foot pushing the boat backward as you try to go forward. Every rocket that pushes off into space will push the Earth in the opposite direction. Don't worry...not only is the push insignificant not to make much difference, but these items are pushed off in all sorts of nearly-random directions (depending on the location, the time of year and the time of day) so that we basically are keeping things in balance anyway.
Ugh...I think I said to much. Wait...were we talking about time travel? I have a lot to say about that too, but I'll save it for later!!
Well...in summary: Maybe you can travel through time but you cannot change it--it always was and always will be (your mom was not killed so it's impossible to kill her). Or maybe time is non-linear so that travelling through it and changing it means you're really 'changing' the outcome in another 'universe' of many, similar to the Sliders concept. Or maybe you can only travel forward in time (Einsteiny stuff) and so it's impossible to change the future or past anyway. As for occupying space, you might bump into something as you're passing through time and it could push that object ahead of you through time or maybe if you "re-materialize" you would occupy the same space as air or a rock or something. If the atomic nuclei of you and the already-present matter are close enough then an immense nuclear reaction might occur--so it's a bit safer to travel through time in space where you can't re-materialize inside another object!
The end. |
|
|
|
Yvond
Lieutenant
Joined: Apr 02, 2002
Member#: 39
Posts: 178
|
|
Posted:
Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:47 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zack:
What does that all mean? Mass is not important at all when it comes to one celestial body orbiting another. As long as the body's SPEED and DISTANCE remains relatively constant, then we don't have to worry.
I'm sorry, but this line of reasoning is completely and entirely wrong. Gravity was discovered by Newton because he knew the moon orbited around the earth, and he used his new-found Newtonian mechanics to help butress his theory, which in its simplest form, states that
F = (G M1 M2)/r^2,
where the force acted upon an object is dependent upon the masses of the two objects in question, the sqaure of the distance between them, and his postulated gravitational constant G. If one mass changes, then the force acted upon it changes, and consequently, so do the orbital velocity and radius. They have to. I don't have time to derive these equations, but for a simple 2-body system,
velocity = sqrt[G M(earth)/r].
This alone shows that the orbital velocity is tied to the mass of the object. All things being equal, if the mass of the earth changes, either the velocity of an object orbiting the earth changes or its radius changes, or both change. But the whole point of my previous post was to remind everyone that the changes to the earth's mass are so insignificant that for all practical purposes, nothing changes at all.
The issue of the orbital velocity and distance being tied to the mass of an object indirectly through Newton's Law of Gravitation is so important in that it lead to the discovery of the outer planets before they were even seen through a telescope. Why? Their gravitational pull was perturbing the orbits of the Earth, Mars, etc.
"In the solar system the dominant force is the gravitational force exerted by the sun on each planet; assuming that this is the only force, the simple elliptical orbits described by Kepler's laws are derived. However, the perturbations caused by the gravitational interaction of the planets among themselves changes and complicates the curve of these orbits. The study of perturbations has led to important discoveries in astronomy. Within the solar system, the existence and position of Neptune was predicted because of the deviations of Uranus from its computed path. Likewise, Pluto was discovered by its effect on Neptune. Beyond the confines of the solar system, perturbations in the orbits of stars caused by the gravitational forces of orbiting bodies have led to the discovery of a number of extrasolar planetary systems." --infoplease.com
'nuff said. |
|
|
|
Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Posted:
Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:09 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
You narcissist. |
|
|
|
zeverken
Ensign
Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Member#: 260
Posts: 22
Location: belgium
|
|
Posted:
Wed Jan 08, 2003 3:58 am Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
yeah well, I like my theories more...
_________________
Friendship is like a glass so handle it with care, once its broken its hard to repair. |
|
|
|
 esparvel
Lieutenant
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Member#: 116
Posts: 110
Location: An Spanish taifa
|
|
Posted:
Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:14 pm Post subject: The Tiime Travel Paradox, and its possibilities? |
|
Just my two cents, Earth and Moon are a system by themselves which has been changing for eons, this means that 600 million years ago the year lasted more days than now, days were shorter, and therefore Earth rotated faster and the Moon was closer to Earth, so tides were stronger. This is due to the fact that tides are an energy consuming part of the system which makes Earth rotate more slowly, and in order to equilibrate the system the Moon has moved further from Earth. In a very distant future days will be longer than 24 hours and Moon wil be even further from Earth.
_________________
The problem with political jokes is that they keep getting elected. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
