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[OT] Iraq and US Politics
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cvb
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 9:10 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Well, I figure since we have such a wide spectrum of people here, it might be interesting to see what everyone's opinions are.

That and its Friday and I'm stuck at work. Anyway, here's what I was pondering at work.

So everyone one is making fun of the whole "Clone baby" thing. They get on TV and say they've cloned another baby. We ask for proof. They eat up more TV time, smiling and saying they really do have a cloned baby. We laugh and say this is the biggest joke in the world.

Okay, still with me. Because I want to know how the following situation is different.

The US get on TV and say they've found proof of weapons in Iraq. We ask for proof. They eat up more TV time, frowning seriously and saying they really do have information that will prove this.

Anyone else see the irony in this? Of course, is it really surprising because Lord know I'm beginning to think that Bush did originate from some alien species.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:05 pm   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


I just watched the glorious state of the union address by good old George W. Jr. and I hate that man even more. ANY and EVERY proof he gave for Iraq having weapons of mass destruction and refusing to co-operate is a complete, utter, and total lie. You tell me anything negative he said about Iraq in that address, and I will tell you how, and in most cases why he’s lying through his filthy, bloody, oil hungry American teeth.

Bush is an utter disgrace.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:05 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


I feel the same way! I watched most of the sppech and at the end I was so ticked off.

First of all, I actually go a bit excited when I heard him talking about research funding and clean energy... and then I realized its because he doesn't want to rely on the Middle East anymore.

The rest of his speech was worthless. How do you talk about saving medicare and then tell everyone your cutting taxes? Exactly where is the money coming from to promote all these wonderful changes.

And I love the whole "Let's prevent wildfires and save people's homes." Well... yeah, considering his approach is to cut down all the trees before they catch fire, I guess it could word.

But by far, the worse part of the evening was the last ten minutes where he constantly mispronouced the word nuclear...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:38 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


To tie this to the clemwolf theory I just thought that maybe either Clem or Wolf is the clone that they speak of.

As for the State of our disunion I have to say at this point that none of this is my fault. I voted for Gore. While I do not think that Gore would be better for this country on a wartime footing I do feel that he would be better for the country in an ecconomic recovery sense. George W. Is a consumate politician who will never back anything that he says and will say whatever he thinks the people WANT to hear. The public wants to hear that the taxes will be lowered AND that there will be more services offered.

The sad part of this whole thing is that there is that George W. will win the next election in a walk. Historically America does not change presidents DURING a war situation if it does not have to. Vietnam was the only time that that happened. George W. will make sure that the 'war' is heating up next year and ensure his election come Nov 2004.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:05 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


What about the interview where Rumsfeld said that Germany and France are 'Old Europe'.. Because they disagree, along with Belgium, by the way, with the preemtive war the US mean to start.

Here's some more on that : link to related CNN article
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:33 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


US has spend lots of money to get those soldiers to the middle east. To the US government that is a waste of money if their isn't going to be a war.

Damn I am posting serious stuff in this forum! Lets compensate with this link
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:14 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Eyedae, CVB,

What about this? I'm not for a war, but the evidence Bush alluded has now been confirmed. Maybe it would be good to refrain from being so harsh and making rash judgement calls before enverything has been set on the table...

Colin Powell UN Evidence

And with regard to the forests---I live in Colorado, and we experienced the worst fire season in the history of the state this year. I live about 100 miles from where the Hayman fire took place, and could see and smell the cloud plume for days. The primary reason for this problem is that environmental agencies have prevented any sort of thinning of the forests, which are now overgrown and choked with debris. The worst drought in 50 years here provided the final straw to break the camel's back. Now I'm defininately not for mindless destruction of our forests, but clearly, the environmental groups which have prevented thinning of forests and do not allow for fires to burn in the West have contributed nicely to this problem. The Hayman fire went up like it did precisely because of this policy---the Forest Service has been warning for years about that area, but it has been tied up in litigation for over 10 years as a result of environmentalist interference. In my opinion, the blame, in addition to the woman who started it all, falls squarely on their shoulders.

If people aren't willing to let fires burn in the West like they used to---like they NEED to---then thinning is the only option. Otherwise, I guarentee that you will see the exact same thing happen over and over. Anyone remember what happened to Yellowstone?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:41 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


First of all Yvond, much respect on how you presented your argument. Most people would come in and say, you idiot this, you idiot that, as I can understand why you would believe this so called “evidence” because Powell has played on what you don’t know.

First and foremost, the Al Queda member that fled into Iraq, and now apparently because he managed to set up a secret base of operations, hes is now running hand in hand with Sadaam. Im sorry, Im not convinced. In Canada alone we have billions of drug dealers, that continually evade police, so according to what Powell said, these drug dealers are working with the Canadian government. Riiiiight.

I don’t have time to go into detail, but I do have rebuttals for almost all this “evidence” Powell presented. However Iraq’s formal response was excellent and held most of my points. I think it completely disarmed this assumption approach Powell tried to pull.

Ill be back later to finish my argument.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:49 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Holly shit balls I may actually be in agreement with Yvond.

Okay Kiddies here's the scoop. We live in a media world. We have satellites aimed all over the country. Information is easy to get, it's at everyone's fingertips. So with information (false or true) floating around it is easy for people to form their opinions and ideas on almost anything. And they can always find some outlandish reason or evidence to back them. Isn't that just crazy? [Big Grin]

So yes I am an American, [Smile] I'm not republican or democrat, I am stuck in the middle. like the Ents in Lord of the Rings The Two Towers I started out being neutral. I didn't have a side because no one was on my side. I didn't want war, a part of me still doesn't. But I have been pushed. I know now that the fate of the world can be ended by one man. Sadam may not be the one to take to the nuclear level and try to kill us all. he knows that if he does then his world goes as well. But that doesn't mean he can't slip up and let one of those get in the hands of a crazy bin ladin wanna be. I think Sadam has butter fingers.

I have friends who already left their home to go to Iraq. I fear for them. the may die for what I like to call a "penis contest." (two grown men trying to figure out who has the biggest dick.) For this reason I can see why a lot of the world is against Bush. Because thats an easy way to look at this war. It is what i first thought of it. It seemed like Sadam would flex his muscle, And say,"look at me i am so stronge. sill U.N. you can't inspect me. ha ha ha" And than you too." [Big Grin] now ol W. is saying, "I am stronger than you and I am (more smarter)

I believe this war situation could have been avoided a long time ago. I know many Americans give to other countries, our government gives, but it comparison to what we can give, it just peanuts. Our country is pretty tight. And half of the People here couldn't give a shit what's going on beyond their city limits anyways. For a long time America has been sheltered of world events. J-LO & Ben Aflec or other celebrity news, hit us before the real news. I blame the media for that. Sure that type of news may be what the people enjoy, but the media has a responsibility to give us real news, they are hurting my country. [Frown]

I want the rest of the world to know that just because our President wants war it doesn't mean that our whole country does. And this war we are entering scares the shit out of me. The rules of war are broken. Civilians are now targets. You saw this on that tragic September's day. People who commit these acts are pissed at our government and are taking it out on Americans citizens. If they knew much about us they would know not to hold bush as a representation of the American people. He didn't even win the popular vote! [Smile] (Not that Gore could do any better right now anyways.) I know our government has left many of people in the Middle East defenseless after saying we wouldn't do that. and maybe we deserve it. But I think that the eye for an eye theory will destroy the world.

I know that Iraq hates us for the economic sanctions, but come on. Its not like their dictator really wants to help them anyways. This country is hated for its prosperity. It is hated for being wasteful. HATED for being unhelpful. And most of all it is hated because we(American citizens.) don't even know why they hate us. Neutral America plays favorites. it helps only their friends, and or people who have something to offer us. these countries that want to attack us are like neglected children, trying to prove themselves in the eyes of their parents. But they don't or can't do this in a positive way so they are trying to get negative attention.

I totally understand the hate. We are like the rich guy with wads of cash in his pocket, giving a quater to a homless guy. We walk away thinking. "I did some good. gold star for me." "its not my fault he's poor/and homless, he should be greatful for what i gave." okay so i agree with that last part, but that still doen't mean we aren't a bunch of tight fisted pricks. When is our nation going to learn that in order for security we need to have a wealth throughout the world. POORER countries are need help. They need to come up and evolve into the 21st century.


My opinion about foreign oil... Screw-em! We need to focus on alternatives for it. Gore said this along time ago. Nobody cared then, but now is the time for America to change. Its time for us to say "Screw the oversized SUV'S" "I will carpool." Instead of throwing things away, lets fix them. Lets have the manufactures build things that can be fixed easily, even if the lose 2% profits. Let them say its okay, we are helping America.

To get us back to my originally thought. My opinion on Iraq's Weapons of mass destruction is, YES Sadam has them. Of coarse he does. Shoot if I had Sadam's cash flow, and technology, I could build my own, or buy one from Russia(just as an example.) Almost every country in the world still has some. I can bet we have them. Is it scary? YES IT IS! NO MATTER WHO HAS THEM! Even if a country has good intentions(thinking they can make themselves stronger and be more important. giving themselves some leverage in world affairs. or to just plain defend themselves like the U.S. is probably doing.) Well no matter who has them it bad. Because even if so called good forces have them, it is easy for those weapons to slip in to the hands of (in bush terms) "the evildoers."

Why haven't they exposed this real hardcore evidence? Well do you remember how I rambled on about the Media. Who do you think sits back in their underground bunker, on their American made leather LAZY-BOY recliner to watch CNN? UHMMMM UH..... Sadam? [Razz] Right Sadam can watch TV just like Americans. So if they come out and say they have obtained information. Showed it to the entire world. To this twisted world society, people would ask how did you get this. the government would explain. By doing this... their source would be exposed, no longer being able to be sources. Hell I wouldn't be amazed if we have gotten our information through unethical practices that the U.N. would most likely punish us for. That is my IDEA on why they don't just go flapping their jaws like fools.

As for the tree's… Yvond has already made that point. But on a side note I am amazed and proud that they are trying to pass that 15 billion dollar aid to battle aids in Africa. But this all just my opinion, and my sources of information might be bias, or totally false. Now that I have admitted this, I think that you guys could admit it as well. [Smile]
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:59 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


I suppose nobody really wants a war. So, what's the best way to prevent wars? A good place to start, of course, is disarming. But that doesn't just go for Iraq. Every time I read something new about the Iraq conflict, I ask myself "Would the USA allow UN weapons inspectors full access to whatever they want? Would any other country give out honest information about their weapons and military?" No way. What if, say, France said they had evidence that the USA had hidden nuclear weapons and threatened to launch a major attack because of this? Would the world opinion be the same in that situation? (Then again, there really isn't any other power that can match the US' military, so it probably wouldn't be a serious threat anyway). I'm no fan of Saddam Hussein's, but if you think about it - the one nation that would be allowed to start a war right now, according to the UN regulations that both Iraq and the USA (I think) have agreed to, is Iraq. A nation is allowed by the UN to engage in a conflict if there is an imminent threat (read: tons of US forces at Iraq's borders). What is the imminent threat to the USA?

I'm not sure if this makes any sense. I should probably get my thoughts together on this subject and write something a bit clearer some other time.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:30 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Very well said loveslave.

They say they dont want war, yet the US government just keeps pushing for one. They literaly ignore all other options, despite Iraqi co-operation.

Im sure, correction, POSSITIVE, that the US government has ten times more dirty secrets to hide then Iraq. But NO, the US government is always right are they not? And if you disagree with US government, you are part of the Axis of Evil. How Just is that !??
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 12:00 pm   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Darn it! [Smile] I didn't want to take time out of work to post another lesson for you but it looks like I have too. [Big Grin]

The threat that the U.S. has is Sadam. He isn't co-operating. He refused to let inspectors see what he is capable of. The reason why we want to know about him is because he has been a threat before. "Gulf War" And now with possible ties with terrorist groups he's still a threat. Even if he does not sanction this, they still are crossing his borders, and hiding there. Now if he has these types of weapons that we all fear. That even CANADA should fear. Those terrorists have a chance to take them from him, or buy them from him.

I do not doubt that the U.S. doesn't have its own secrets. I would be stupid to say we don't. But the fact is we are not a threat to the world. The only threat we are is the threat of defense. Sure we could lay back and let Iraq do what they wish but what would happen if we did? Hmmm. majority of Middle East, would be united (or forced to be.) The U.S. population would drop.

Okay so I am not seeing to many good things from this.... The thing is the U.S. is the world power right now. We have to play our role as the big brother. We are the modern day Rome. Yes maybe we are a little cocky, but we still have a job to do. And that is to make sure that the world stays in one piece.

Keep in mind that the U.S. wasn't and hasn't been the only world power. Look into history and see what world powers have done in the past. I would say we are being pretty good on comparison. I know that all things must come to an end. Someday the U.S. won't be a supreme power. But who will this torch that we carry be handed down to? IRAQ??? NOOOO THANK YOU.

Iraq has broght this upon himself. We have given him more than enough warnings. And what about Korea and their possible threats???? I worry about Japan.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:08 pm   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Call me a member of that "old Europe" which doesn't give a Damn for Bush and all that band of buccaneers. But here I can't understand why if there was proof of where the weapons were they haven't been fed to the UN inspectors. Also, why they have been delivered at the last moment. I'm sorry but here we are too used to the way the US has managed its "proof", we have seen how the US blew up one of its own ships in order to have an excuse to steal territories from us, and faking proof in order to come "to the help" of "friends" (ie. Vietnam and Korea). I'm sorry but the problem with Iraq is that Bush has wasted all the money saved/horded by previous governments and somebody had the idea of linking Iraq, Korea and Iran with this axis of evil business(like in WWII there were three Axis countries). I don't like how they have got Turkish support by offering them the Kurd part of Iraq, and believe me, Kurds won't be better under Turkish rule than they are now with Saddam. Plus it's like pirates sharing the loot they are going to get from the galleon, four centuries ago these guys would have been hung. Now that the U.S. worships the almighty dollar they are hailed as leaders.

I don't think Saddam is a nice guy. He should be marooned on a desert island, but I'd send Bush, Sharon, Mohammed VI, Mussarraf, Mugabe and many others there as well.

I guess that Bush is not the right person to teach the rest of the world what democrazy is, given the way he was elected. Just he's a good example that there are opportunities for everybody in the US. Where else can a fascist retarded moron get elected almost democratically [Razz]
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 1:54 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


For those of you hard-asses who still wish to whine, "I don't like the electoral college! He who gets the most votes should win! Period!" It should be pointed out that we don't know for certain who won the popular vote and we never will. The absentee ballots in California were never counted as their numbers (although considerable) would not have outnumbered the non-absentee democratic vote. Historically the Californian absentee vote has held a republican majority. Did it this time? If it did, it's numbers would be enough to have given Bush the popular vote. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. We'll never know.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:09 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


The main topic that interests me is : 'Why attack Iraq?'

I mean come on... First invade Afghanistan, because Bin Laden is there??? Yeah right... Who ever proved he did 'it' anyway? But that is also besides the point.

The proof Powell demonstrated against Iraq was as credulous as a Tomb Raider mission briefing, I mean come on, it was hilarious man.

The only 2 obvious reasons for the new war are :
1. Securing oil concerns : russia and china are getting too much concerns in the region, and the US hasn't any, because of the bad releationship with Saddam.
2. The president can use a war, electorally.

Okay, one last thing, I like SHORT posts, so I'll shut up, instead of boringly droning on and on and on.
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