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SlowMo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Mar 20, 2002
Member#: 29
Posts: 390
Location: Ghent, Belgium
    
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 Posted:
Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:53 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
 
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quote:
Originally posted by zev:
blabla ...
I do not want a war, but I think Saddam needs to be removed. ... blabla ...
Personally I think he needs to be removed. ...
Oh, well, why not 'remove' the Russian government, and while we're at it, why not 'remove' the South Korean, Chinese and Pakistani governments. Hey, Belgium was a pain in the ass in the recent NATO discussions, let's 'remove' their prime minister too...
Ever heard of the term 'mind your own business', I mean, Saddam is not my friend, far from it, he is still a dictator and all, but somehow I get goosebumps if I hear you people talk about 'removing' and 'replacing' governments of other souvereign countries.
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"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry.'" -- Gary Larson |
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Saffron
Rear Admiral (Ambassador)
Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Member#: 299
Posts: 453
Location: San Jose, CA USA
 
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Posted:
Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:02 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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It's rather sad when the only news source I watch on TV is Comedy Central's Daily Show but I find that they seem to have the best perspective on it. Sort of how the idiots/jesters work in Shakespeare's plays.
The real reason I am posting is to give this link:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078766/
The link is to Slate. It is part of MSN but has turned into one of my personal favorite sites. The entire premise of Slate is that it creates a daily summary from the more prominent media sources in the nation. Anyway, to make a short story long, this is a fairly long piece that has many different opinions from various authors, politians, entertainers,etc. on Iraq. If you have the time, I recommend reading it. There are some interesting points.
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I think I should have no other mortal wants, if I could always have plenty of music. It seems to infuse strength into my limbs and ideas into my brain. Life seems to go on without effort, when I am filled with music. - George Elliot |
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EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posted:
Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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quote:
Originally posted by zev:
For some reason I cant understand how some of you can stand up for a man that killed 20,000 of his own poeple after the Gulf War. Also Saddam can reach over 150km. They found rockets that can reach well beyond the limit of 150km set after the Gulf War. And when has Osama said he never did "it". I do not want a war, but I think Saddam needs to be removed. He is a threat to his own poeple. Hes already killed thousands of his own. And there are thousands of unaccounted chem weapons still not presented. Also in the 12000 page doccument Irag supplied and said it had everything in it, left out tons of weapons. Iraq has restarted building weapons which were outlawed after the Gulf War. Personally I think he needs to be removed.
Um the "own people" that he killed were the people that turned on him and went on Iran's side in the Gulf. I agree thats not the correct way to deal with traitors, which is why its time for Saddam to go. But the US KNEW this, and did nothing.
Its also interesting how Iraq's own people are against the war. These are the very people that Bush plans to free.
Now as Caray put it so very well, Saddam needs to go, but legitimately. War is not answer. (I've lost count at the amount of times Ive said this) Secondly the future of Iraq's oil is to be decided by its people NOT the US.
And I simply dont understand how Blair and Bush can just put aside the MASSIVE anti-war demonstrations around the world, EVEN in the US and UK.
I dont see how a symbol of peace and goodness like the Pope would shake hands with an Iraqi representative, if he represented something as evil as Bush says.
And where did you hear that Iraq can reach farther then 150Km outside Iraq, because I would really like to know.
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By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
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 esparvel
Lieutenant
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Member#: 116
Posts: 110
Location: An Spanish taifa
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Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:28 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Ok, I see God is in the details, I still think that in a Democracy people's vote counts, whilst in a plutocracy it's the same as dropping it in a waste basket... Call it Republic, Monarchy or whatever.
Second thing, and I want to put this clear, Saddam is a dictator who should be removed but killing Iraqi people and using this modern King George's war to take over the Iraqi oil is something I don't agree at all.
I'm sorry but I don't buy that George II "The greedy retarded" is only thinking on the best for Iraq. He has just laid his greedy eyes in one of the largest oil reservoirs and instead of trying to teach Americans that oil is something which is not going to last forever, he wants a big source of oil to keep the American way of life which consists in wasting more than necessary in order to prove how successful he and his country are.
So, my vote is Saddam not, Bush neither, war even less, solution, the same as for Israel, Morocco, Cyprus, ...
_________________
The problem with political jokes is that they keep getting elected. |
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 Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted:
Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:09 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Stop whining. |
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zev
Cadet 4
Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Member#: 359
Posts: 18
Location: Missouri
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EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posted:
Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:21 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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quote:
U.N. resolutions prohibit Iraq's missiles from having a range greater than 93 miles, or 150 kilometers. Blix' report found that during testing, the missiles traveled about 18 miles [30 kilometers] farther
18 KM farther.. OMG, this is completely irrelevant to my point. Iraq can not reach the US, and there for is not a threat to the US. 18KM is not a big difference to neighbouring countries either. Thirdly they have 2 of these missle that are in parts in the first place. That’s a mighty big arsenal. LoL, gimme a break. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) . Next ...
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By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
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Legolas
Commander
Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Member#: 178
Posts: 857
Location: Drunkest state in USA
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Posted:
Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:08 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Okay so here is the deal my little Canadian bacon friend. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) The problem I have with rockets like that. Is that they can be mobile. Sure Sadamm and Obl. Don't agree with each other on some things. But they both hate America. (It is kind of like in middle school. You and your enemy, team up to fight a common hate.) Once the U.S. is out of the way I am sure they would love to blow each other to hell. Another fear is that they can use an island, or possibly even sneak them in under U.S. surveillance to launch these rockets. It wouldn't surprise me if they could, or did. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The fact is they are making weapons that they are not supposed too. Why were these rockets outlawed??? Because they can take out our (America's) business partners. And then we can't deal with anyone. Bad intentions? Maybe. This is like taking the gun away from a crazed bank robber with lost of hostages. There is no arguing on the fact that the little dork needs to be disarmed. As much as he has complied with the U.N. he has just as much jerked us around. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Now on to my other point/opinion. America has helped and hurt people in the past. This is all true. But in the scheme of things I think it balances out. I truly wish that my nation were able to stand on its own. To not need anything from outside its borders. I am in favor of kicking the masses is their asses and telling them. Stop wasting food! Gas! And stop being lazy and stupid. Cause I will admit most of America is in the dark on a lot of topics in this world. Like any other country we have our faults. And those are some of them. And we are hated for them. Like Cary said the U.S. is a huge target! (Kind of like the famous people in America, they get their names trashed in the tabloids everyday.)
![[Cool]](cool.gif) But if some how America could be independent and free from other countries. And not feel obligated to help others who are unfortunate and/or who are being punished and brain washed by psycho dictators. Well then I would like our country to close its borders, replace the American Flag with a middle finger, and our new quote could be "F**k OFF!!!" I, along with many others wouldn't mind to see people flowing into our country come to a stop. I hate it when the poor and uneducated traveling HERE thinking that they can better themselves. I can't stand People from other countries COMING HERE for a better cheaper education. (The worst part is my TAX money pays for most of these people.) Why should we let them when so much of this world hates us?
Okay so they do hate us. We are assholes. I mean look at what imperialism has done to the world. Horrible Americans. Our money hungry corporations that supply the rich, ALL OVER THE WORLD with stylish shoes or parts and quality cheap merchandise. Look at Nike and its sweatshops. Or at Wal-Mart and how they are abusing, Chinese workers. (Ever notice how every cheap crapy toy is made in China?) Too bad those other countries wouldn't just stick up for them selves. Not let the U.S. employee the citizens for low wages. I would like to see the U.S. employ only American workers and keep business primarily with in our own market. And slowly pay off our national debt. Then we could say piss off!
When another country is in trouble we could let them die out. Survival of the fittest/smartest. Maybe people would hate us as much then. Maybe if we didn't help people we could stop harming them as well. But it seems that the more good you do the more bad comes as well to balance it. So I think if we kept to ourselves even more, than the rest of the world should just leave us alone. Because we will leave them alone.
Now to Esparvel- here is a little saying that we used to say in school. But it was banned because it used the word God. Separation of church and state was in our constitution and since schools are state owned. No more words like that. But when I was young I had to say this every morning with one hand over my heart, while staring at the flag.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag, Of the United States of America. And to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, One nation under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and justice for all."
It's been a republic for a long time chief. Sorry bout that.
And to agree with Cocles. Stop your whining! This thread has only proven that this WORLD has too much pride to ever back down. And will someone bomb my house already? Jeeeesh! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) |
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EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posted:
Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:08 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Im not sure the very fact they hate America is because they have all this money and are free. It's the fact they bully and force their will on others that brings the problem. I am also sure there are people with differing opinions and I respect that, but I beleive in my opinion no less because of that fact.
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
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esparvel
Lieutenant
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Member#: 116
Posts: 110
Location: An Spanish taifa
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Posted:
Sat Feb 22, 2003 12:24 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Well, I guess this topic is never going to be closed. Legolas, FYI, a republic can be a democracy or not, for instance China is a republic but nobody would say that it's a democracy, on the other side France or Germany are both republics and democracies, or the United Kingdom is a monarchy and figured allegedly a democracy.
Since you and Yvond insist so much on getting upset whenever I mention it I must accept that US is not a democracy, and since allegedly there are free, clean elections it can't be a dictatorship, a technocracy is out of the topic given the IQ of most of your leaders, therefore it can only be a plutocracy, i.e. the richest rule and your vote goes to the waste basket, and yes, it's perfectly compatible with being a REPUBLIC under God or the sea.
By the way, the term Democracy or Republic hasn't anything to do with Democrats and Republicans.
About the US going to support every country in this world, excuse me, but if your politicians or intelligence (sic) units would have chosen better seeds to support in the past, you wouldn't be hardvesting these storms, I must remind you that in the budget of the US have been Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Gral. Noriega, Augusto Pinochet, Somoza and many more dictators, Cocles is right, stop whinning when they get unleashed.
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The problem with political jokes is that they keep getting elected. |
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AnotherBovine
Cadet 4
Joined: Feb 15, 2003
Member#: 353
Posts: 19
Location: Connecticut
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Posted:
Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:37 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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I would just like to start a poll for either: who supports war in iraq and who doesn't or/and who here just hates the USA maybe both. it would be interesting to see how the two polls end up looking. they'll probably look the same.
fyi
i r american
catch you on the flip side |
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Caray
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Oct 17, 2002
Member#: 243
Posts: 408
Location: France
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Posted:
Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:51 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Just a little note to put things a little in perspective about the Great Hate Of Americans. As a matter of fact, I agree with this article. On TV and in the papers, it's not 'the Americans', it's 'Bush'.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55326-2003Feb23.html
And by the way, missiles were not banned, they had to be limited to a 150kms range. It is because those particular ones have a wider range (15 miles more)that the fuss started. Saddam shouldn't be allowed to get away with it and the missiles should be destroyed. I have little hope of that with Bush shouting that the war is going to start in the next two weeks even if the missiles are destroyed.
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My reality cheque bounced |
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EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posted:
Wed Feb 26, 2003 10:53 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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I know my comments as of late have been without any backing, yet still very severe towards the government of the United States. But whatever this current administration tells you about Saddam, whom CNN, and other major American news corporations repeat, is misleading and full of untrue facts to aid in the justification of government policy. In this case the needless war on Iraq.
I bring to the table solid evidence from the national security archive, that this isn’t the first time the US gov has completely manipulated facts, and in some cases engineered actions and then falsely accused the so called enemy for their own good.
quote:
OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”
Operation NORTHWOODS is only one of the many dicusting and shocking ways the US GOV with attempt to get its way. And this is one big reason why I am TOTATLY against this needless war. And no, this quote is not written by some crack pot sitting at home thinking of a way to get back the US. Here are the complete links for further reading...
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/ or
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
In any case, something to seriously consider if you are in support of this war.
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
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Yak E. Tory
Ensign
Joined: Feb 26, 2003
Member#: 369
Posts: 40
Location: California, USA
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Posted:
Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:18 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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As an initial disclaimer, Cocles is the one who dragged me into this whole mess. So all dissatisfied ravings and new-member evidentiaries should be first directed at him.
Yes, yes, everybody hates the US. To different degrees, of course- even the people who live there. It's fashionable! It's easy! The US is the Microsoft of the globe. Everybody you talk to, even the people who work there, profess either a deep-seeded hatred for that which symbolizes all that is evil, or a quiet, brooding dissatisfaction with it. Why? Precisely because it's so giant and has so much power.
I really did enjoy Esparvel's idea (way, way back in the debate I realize) that the US is a country that blows up its own military ships. If we were going to incite a backlash against terroists in our country, dude, we'd do something a little bit more striking, like... say... fly some planes into buildings! Which we also did ourselves.
And Legolas, I can't believe you actually compared yourself to the Two Towers- "Like the Ents, I started out neurtral..." Wow.
I realize this borders (or completely encroaches) upon bringing an old sub-topic up again, but: why is the default position always "Oh, it's all about oil anyway."? After all, it MUST be about oil! Cause that's the only reason the US Government would be making all this crap up about missiles and chemical weapons... all these fictional stories about Hussein invading this little fictional country called Kuwait... and sending Scuds over to Israel just because he felt like it. That was all probably some US-fed propaganda. It's all gotta be about OIL! Iraq has it, and the US wants it! Never mind that the US gets all it needs from Alaska, Texas and Venezuela. More more more, right? The best part is when somebody brings out the oil card, everyone else responds with, "true THAT, dude! That's my MAN! Finally, he comes out and SAYS IT!" as though it was some epiphany that nobody else thought of before.
Yeah, yeah. The US is desperate for more oil. That's why freakin' Greenpeace is kicking Bush in the face every day demanding Hydrogen cars, and it's why GM debuted their hydro-powered vehicle last week. It's why the Bush administration gives tax breaks to those who drive electric cars, and why ten MILLION people in the US repeatedly protest No War for Oil.
"I'll find the link to the US governement paper saying how to share the Irakian oil after the war. It makes for interesting reading."
Sure sure, and if I stopped typing this little rant long enough to look, I could find the link to Colin powell's audio clip saying that Iraqi oil is for Iraqis, and we're not going to take it if we invade.
Gab on about sufficient proof over chemical and biological stockpiles. Perhaps those who are unhappy with the satellite photos would jitter with giddy anticipation if Colin PowellI popped on CNN and illustrated for us:
"We have this asset in Iraq, his name is Ray Parker, but he goes by Almoud El Alamein there. He took pictures of this installation three weeks ago, here it is: And here's some pictures of Ray just to prove it's him. He lives in the corner hut of shantytown number 5... he'll be back in tonight at 5 pm. local time, in case any of you guys want to call.
"Oh. BULLSHIT!" you cry! "Doesn't matter what Powell claims, or Bush flubbers, or Rumsfeld drools out over the podium- I wouldn't believe them anyway! And I don't believe them now!" Yes! Well spoken! Just as good as those conspiracy limpdicks who cry about Leonard Peltier's conviction being false because there was never any evidence to convict him, and when you swagger a whole boatload of evidence, they just reply with, "Yeah, but that's all government evidence! Of COURSE when the FBI presents its case, it'll have all this tainted, hollow evidence that conveniently fits their conclusions!"
So since we're not trusing Powell or any of his guys, who were all over there in '91, and saw first-hand what Human-Rights Champion Hussein did to the peasants who rose against him, or the Kuwaiti underground, let's move on- and instead, trust a man who ends battles by gassing EVERYBODY on the battlefield- "eh... my own soldiers were going to get whipped anyway."
Sure sure, then you reply- ohHO! You use Iraq's previous record against them, I shall use the US's horrible record against you! BEHOLD! VILE documents documenting the Bay of Pigs! William McNamara! Kennedy! The CIA!
I reply simply. Being that very little (perhaps Australians with burned fingers) has remained the same since the 60s, is this the same US Government in power now that advised upon intervention in Cuba? Or, perhaps, leading back to the whole Democratic Republic thing, does the US Government change every four or eight years? Thinky thinky thinky... but, ALAS! The Saddam now is the SAME asshole Saddam that he was twelve years ago! McNamara and LBJ are both worm food, but Husseiney-man is the same dude with grey hair and a bad back. And somebody says, yeah, well, Bush Jr. is just as good as Bush Sr., I pre-empt that retort with way to go! Good cover.
Caray pointed out cleverly that Bush never even tried to hide the fact that he wanted to take Saddam down. No kidding! Talk to any Gulf War vet- and I do every day- and they'll all tell you how infernally stupid it was for the Coalition to stop outside of Baghdad. Let's call the cops on those gang-bangers over there, mugging people, burning shit, and shooting kids... but then let's not press charges! That way they can limp home, have a great excuse for building some nationalism, and then get everybody pissed at us again when we leave! God FORBID we cut the head off this snake, cause what will that do? Only prevent the country from doing it again.
Horrible thing, if his regime fell and Joe Schmoe could vote for whoever he wanted without a gun to the back of his head. Wow... Hussei-boy won 100 percent? Every single voting Iraqi? Now THAT'S a dedicated country! Out of thirty million people, not ONE GUY staggered in drunk and checked the wrong box? Not a single dude jerked around and wrote his own name in? Damn. Admirable. Or is it more likely that the same country that tactically positions its anti-aircraft guns next to playgrounds and hospitals might have had a slightly BULGING influence on the elections?
We're going to war, we're going to war, the rhetoric goes on and on. It's obvious that Bush just wants to run over there and whup some shit up, yeah? Saddam won't do a damn thing he doesn't want to unless everybody bigger than him pressures him to do it with a big freakin' stick in their hands. So what the hell is the giant US military presence and buildup in the Middle East? A Big Freakin' Stick! If Rumsey Rums sent the military over to the peninsula, but all the while told CNN "Naw, we're not ever going to attack really... we don't want war. We're just pressuring him." You think Saddam might CATCH ON? Tick tick tick...
Has everybody forgotten what assholes the Iraqi government encompasses? I'll stop short of calling the Iraqi public assholes, since half of them do what they're told to avoid getting killed, and the rest of them hate the US because Iraqi (state-controlled!) national media tells them dailiy what devilspawn the Americans are. But MAN! The government and ruling class are just a bunch of assholes! The only reason nobody seems to be able to see this any more is because the spotlight is on the US for being the Judge Dredd of the world, screwing with things that nobody thinks is America's business. Bush administrators give press conferences every day, and hell, there are new speeches to pick apart! When CNN is limited to stock footage of Saddam three years ago talking with his generals over dinner. Who's gonna get more media attention, more screen-time, and get hated more?
Ten years goes by and everybody forgets about the Iraqi villagers that the Republican Guard slaughtered, the Kuwaiti towns they looted, and the missiles they sent over to Tel Aviv just because they hate Jews!
If these buttfuckers lived next door to me and I caught a WHISPER of a rumor that they had an old, rusted, shitty pistol hidden in their dresser drawer, I'm calling the cops and not sleeping until they raid!
Man... yeah, the US, Russia, and tons of other countries have giant stockpiles of chemical weapons lying around. So sure, Iraq having a few isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, yeah? Or maybe the US publishing quantities and locations of the WMDs counts for something... or the treaty after treaty cutting the number of active nuclear warheads we have lying around. But Saddam chooses none of this reduction, none of this disclosure. "Nah... we don't have these missiles! We have no chemical weapons!" Even in his own interview, Saddam contradicts himself- did the missiles never exist, or do they no longer exist? I'm just way too lazy to find the Dan Rather interview transcripts again.
"If the US starts a war on Iraq, which they plan to do, Saddam will do everything in his power, which isn’t much to begin with, to keep the land of his country. Now if you wanna call him a madman after that, or him using respectable means to eradicate an unwelcome intruder, thats up to you."
Sure. He was defending his nation against the HORDES of Kuwaiti armored cavalry that were going to sweep across Baghdad in a bloodstorm and kill every man, woman and child.
This is the SAME GUY. Nobody believed a word of what he was saying when he justified his invasion of Kuwait, but now everybody believes him when he says, "No, we never had missiles that can reach further than mandated! We have no missiles that can carry chemical warheads. Those missiles were all destroyed. I mean... uh.. they never existed to begin with... AND we have no chemical weapons." And he's a trustworthy guy! Why?
Because he's the underdog against the U.S. And Netscape gets all the sympathy when it's up against Microsoft, the giant monopolizer. Because nobody wants to see Microsoft win... it would just be more of the same.
and at the risk of spoiling the effect of my dry-gulch wrap-up line:
On top of all this, I'm FRENCH!
_________________
==="I said it was impossible; I never said I couldn't do it." |
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Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted:
Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:23 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Damn that was beautiful. |
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