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[OT] Iraq and US Politics
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:10 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


quote:
Originally posted by Yak E. Tory:
Blablablablablabla...blablabla... blablabla...blablabla...blablabla... blablabla...blablabla...blablabla...blablabla... blablabla...blablabla...blablabla... blablabla...blablabla.. .blablabla...blablabla... blablabla...blablabla...blablabla...

Didn't anybody teach you that it's not the size that matters?

I find it funny that disagreement is so easily confused with hatred. See I disagree with you, do I hate you? No? Do I hate the US? Don't be silly.

And one point I'm sure I haven't seen adressed in your overly long rant, is the specific right the US or any other country for that matter would have to attack another country, without UN approval, just because it thinks it can. Just because it doesn't like the leader/regime.

I mean a veto I can understand (barely), but actually claiming that the UN is jeopardising it's credibility because it's not going along with the US, now that is the goof of all time.

And a sidenote : newbs should show some more respect.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:05 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


As you misquoted or used only part of my quotes, throwing away what could have blunted your... hem... forceful reply, I'll answer to those (only fair I think).

1/ I only said that oil was one of many reasons, not that it was the only one. If you think it hasn't entered the calculations of the lobbies clamoring for war I've got some nice land to sell you in Chernobyl.
And yes, I'd rather believe a governement paper than a soundtrack in a speech. (read my lips, I have never had sexual relationship with that woman, we never helped the guerilla etc, etc, etc).

2/ I said that from the start Bush claimed that whatever was voted or found out, he was going to attack, thus sabotaging in advance everything the UN tried, up to and including the fact finding mission. I wasn't commenting on or defending Saddam and his dictatorship in any way.

You have as much right to 'rant' as anyone, this is a free country after all and people are allowed to disagree without fearing insults, threats, blows or arrest. I only ask that you don't misquote me.

I will also leave you with that thought : Had Bush & co played his cards better, treated the other countries (and the UN) as other than lackeys to be fooled, insulted and bludgeoned into blind obedience, it is my belief that right now the 'nasty/stupid/cowardly/old/greedy/stupid/ungodly etc' European countries would be sending troops to the Gulf. Grumbling and squabbling, maybe, but going.
Bush is his own worse ennemy.

ps : read the latest news. What is your comment on the Turks being allowed to invade the Kurds to 'disarm' them ? (the border only, but more if the Turks believe there is a danger to them).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 8:50 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Yak E. Tory,

Aside from the language, I couldn't have said it better myself. Nice post.

Ignore SlowMo's comment---be as tounge and cheeky as you want here...everyone else sure is.

[Big Grin]
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:36 pm   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Caray, I completely agree with you when you say that if Bush had played his cards right, we'd all be in the same boat united in a single course of action, whatever that might have been. I don't particularly like Bush or agree with everything he does. I simply think that the giant overlying tennis shoe is that Saddam is an ass. Bush completely jumped the gun, and if he had shown a little more restraint instead of blowing the trumpets all over the place, we'd all be happier with each other and be getting along. I definitely believe that. There's just no way I can understand garnering an iota of sympathy for Saddam just because somebody paints a sign that says "It's about OIL!" and jumps up and down in the street.

As for misquoting you, I shall weep in an eternal bucket of bashfulness for that. It would have taken me minutes and minutes and minutes to hunt back through that giant, giant forum and find all your precise quotes. I'll make quite sure to accurately quote in the future. And of COURSE I threw away the stuff that would have blunted my argument! That's the whole point of cut-copy-paste!

Bush's giant military buildup didn't sabotage anything the UN did. Why would Saddam cooperate less with the UN inspectors if he thought the US would attack anyway? Would he keep wasting his time hiding stuff and being a dick, or should he be desperate to show them everything he can to keep Bushy from breaking in to his private pool? The pressure is something you have to keep on him. It only would have sabotaged the UN's efforts if Bush capitulated and backed down like everybody wants him to. If he did THAT, then Saddam would see that all he has to do is screw up his declarations and repeat some lies, and then everyone will leave him alone because they don't want to actually come over there and knock his head around. That would undermine the UN's efforts.

And SlowMo, I don't hate anybody. This is all great fun to me, and I love disagreeing with people... if not that, then what the heck would we do late at night? What fun would it be just sending emails around to everyone saying how great we all were?

As for a country having the right to attack another one, Saddam proved he already doesn't care about that in '91. So the US at least has justification. I shall stop short of making stale WWII references, but I'll go ahead and insinuate that I'm thinking about them, and that will take care of that (but I won't make a giant argument based on it). Besides, we don't think we can, we KNOW we can! Nobody else liked the leader/regime either, until we started muscling up to him. Now they're all trying to cut him slack because we're the bad cop.

And oh yeah... newbs should show more respect? By doing what, not saying what I think? That's awesome. Should I just sit around and listen for a good few weeks, and then just post a couple of atta-boy's for you? I respect all your opinions and your voices. Come on... how childish a notion is that in a discussion forum? Show more respect, you're new here!

Besides... it's too cool to see Posts: 2 on the bottom there.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:29 pm   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Well, it seems it's my turn to write.

First thing I want to make clear is that I think that Saddam Hussein is a SOB who should be breaking stones at a quarry for the rest of his life, and hoping that life would be really long.

However, my point of view is that Bush and his buddies are like a bunch of pirates already splitting the loot, for intance, Turkey has refused to help unless they get their slice of North Iraq (Kurdish area, more Kurds to be oppressed by Ankara, and at the same time they've got the promise that there won't be an independent Kurdish country after "the war").

UK must have its own reasons for joining the US which may be just going against the stream, I mean, if continental Europe says black UK has to say white, but then they have a loot to split. As for Spain, no comment, Aznar is an ass licker nitwit, so he's just being himself.

About the proof of Iraq hiding weapons of mass destruction, they sound totally fake. I mean, if the US had them for so long, why did they wait to tell the rest of us about them? Why don't the UN inspectors have them? Why are they wandering all over Iraq not finding much of anything? Excuse me, but I have this idea (maybe a personal opinion) that US has plenty of great technology to make up proof, maybe next will be pics proving that Hussein doesn't lift the toilet seat when he pees and then he doesn't washe his hands, the ultimte sin... Oh and by the way, the U.S. is one of the few countries (America's buddy communist China is another) that has completely refused to join any agreement limiting or controlling weapons of mass destruction. For sure, Saddam's bacteria have DNA with a U.S. patent on it.

My whole point about this is that apparently neither Bush nor any of his pals give a damn for collateral damage, and be sure that if there's a war there's going to be tons, maybe enough to satisfy the bloodthirst started on September 11th, but guess what, killing children, women and old people is the saddest way to honor (revenge) September 11th victims. And if the U.S. insists on doing it, what's the difference between them and the terrorists?

It's hard to remove a fellow like Hussein from his seat but bombing Iraqi people won't help, maybe he'll get support, in much the same way a retard like Bush is now believed to be one of the wisest men on Earth just because he happened to be the U.S. president on September 11th. Can you imagine how Saddam's people might honor him for resisting the Great Satan?

Anyway, Reza Palevi was removed without a blood bath from Iran, Idi Amin from Uganda and a few others quite the same, so if there has been a way in the past, there might be a way now, I suppose mankind evolution is going forward and not backwards and GWBush is just the exception to the rule and his followers.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:26 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Nice post Esparvel, I agree with most of what you said, though I know your condescending tone about Bush and co will be cause for yet another reply to it. Which will obviously lead to yet another round of back and forth posting.

What I mean is, never forget how sentimental and proud most Americans are about their nation, and it's ultimate symbol : their president. I'm not saying it's misplaced, it's even inspiring. For instance, I'm sure that were I to say that W. is somewhat of a lightweight, intellectually, I'm sure I'd get my ass flamed for it, but come on, who confuses deflation with devaluation? How hard is it to pronounce the word 'nuclear'?

What everybody seems to be forgetting in this thread is the, to my idea, masterful way focus was shifted from OBL to Saddam. I'm sorry, but I fail to see why suddenly now we have to barge into Iraq, after 11 years of transgressions.

The rest of the mail is addressed to Yak E. Tory

Your casus belli you refer to (near the WWII reference in your last post) is invalid. It's not because Iraq invaded Kuwait 12 years ago, that the US, as country, now has the right to invade Iraq, I mean where is the logic in that? That's like saying that the US can invade Germany now, because they have done shit in the past. Or even more ludicrous: Vietnam having the right to attack the US. Shit if you think like that everybody can attack everybody.

And where did I claim you hate me? I was commenting on your opening statement sounding like 'everybody hates the US', and giving a reply to it. You apparently missed the point entirely.

The respect thing you take so seriously was meant as a small jest, which seemed funny to me, because look at you : barging in from nowhere, quoting people like crazy. [Wink]

Now it appears I've sinned my own principles and made a post that is way too long; and come to think of it, this whole thread is way too long, repeating itself, etc. I think I'm pulling out, nothing I will say matters anyway. So peace brothers and sisters, or war, whatever. [Big Grin]
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:48 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


SlowMy,

You're conveniently ignoring portions of Yakee's post. He clearly states the reason the US still has the right to go into Iraq now, several years later, is because it is still the same Iraq it was 12 years ago due to it still being run by the exact same person who is still doing the same things he was back then.

Yakee's WW2 reference was a response to your general question regarding why countries EVER had the right to invade another county.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:45 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


I said I had enough of this thread, but I really can't pass on this...

Cocles, I'm not conveniently ignoring portions of what Yak posted, if I would actually address *everything* the guy writes, I'd fall asleep. The two things you mentioned are ridiculous.

1. The US still has the right? Oh come on, just because Iraq is run by the same guy, you can invade again? After bleeding the country dry for 11 years, now, on a whim, you want to invade again. You'd like permission internationally to do so, but if that isn't to be gotten, well then the international community is wrong.

2. The WW2 reference was still largely out of order. I still don't see why a country ever has the right to invade another.

I still remain with my conclusion that it's way out of our hands, we'll see what happens in the UN I suppose, with France, China and Russia vetoing the new resolution.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:54 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Ahh The UN. 4 out of 15 members support the US. What does the US say? That they will go into this war, with or without UN approval. After all, they are “old Europe”, and don’t know better.

quote:
Turkey has refused to help unless they get their slice of North Iraq
Turkey has not signed with the US because of ONE MAJOR REASON, and it’s not this. For the Gulf War, US used Turkey’s land, and promised them a fairly large sum of money. TO THIS DAY THAT HAS YET TO BE PAID. Now they want to use their land again, and Turkey has refused until the US provides an agreement on paper paying for owed expenses and new expenses. The US did NOT want to agree. Of course all you hear on CNN is, “an agreement is in the works”.

Also Im sure all of you remember the shocking images during the gulf war of burning oil fields that Saddam lit in retaliation of his forces being pushed back to Baghdad. It is the mighty US that, after 7 months of labors, stopped the work of this madman Saddam, and put out most of the burning oil fields. Not after several environmental and civilian health damage. Its strictly according to the US that Saddam lit those fields. YA MOTHER F**KING RIGHT. It is only now that gulf war vets come out and tell the truth.

quote:
...a press release that accuses US forces of setting huge oil fires in Kuwait at the end of Gulf War One... ...At the time, those fires---blamed on Saddam---burned a billion barrels of oil over a seven-month period and raised a poisonous lingering cloud over the Persian Gulf nations... .. One US veteran has now stepped forward and given a detailed account of how he and others in special teams moved forward of the front…and then set charges on the [Kuwait oil] well heads..
http://www.stratiawire.com/article.asp?id=936

If they lied about this, what else are they lieing about.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:09 pm   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


I can't believe this. [Roll Eyes]

Okay Waffle King. Here is a little F.Y.I. [Wink] The president isn't my Nations favorite symbol; he isn't even the ultimate symbol. Hell, half of us didn't vote for him. I would say it is the flag. If you lived here you would have noticed all of the flags plastered on trucks and buildings. (It got to be very big pain in the ass. It seemed like that was the only was for most Americans to show/support our country. Buying a flag at a fricking Wal-Mart. Come on!) Sorry just gets on my nerves I just believe that if Americans actually want to be a true patriot then they should start carpooling and not waste food or energy. Buying some cheaply made flag (that was manufactured in some Chinese sweatshop no doubt) is not being a patriot. [Razz]

And Espy he handled 9/11 very well. A lot of people like how he handled that and love him for it. (As I am sure they would have done for any president.) But sorry, few of us think of him as a wise president. [Big Grin] I did notice that you make fun of his accent. I'll admit I have made fun of it myself. It is very entertaining to make fun of people with accents. But because someone has accent doesn't constitute as them being retarded either. If that were the case have of the Asian/Hindu/Muslim/Spanish and French Americans would be retarded, for many of them have accents.

America's President is just a man that stands up to take the abuse or praise. Yes he is our commander and chief but he is still controlled by us. He is just a figurehead. Most of you I think should have thought of this anyways. Being that most of you think Bush is to incompetent to make any decisions anyways. [Mad] But I guess I am just sick of people hating American Citizens because they are to close-minded that they associate us directly with our government. My government isn’t the greatest; I support half of what they do in most anything. There is a lot of bullshit that goes on in Washington, just like in any other countries headquarters. Please people don't hate a country's people because of it leaders. That is generalizing way too much. Hate some us for being wasteful, and not caring. But don't hate us because we have a president who is from the south and stumbles on big words. [Wink]

Now I am against War. I think it is pointless for the most part. (War for peace is like fucking for virginity.) But I do believe that Sadamm should have been taken out a long time ago. And since we didn't, I guess we have to go back now and do it. I just hope the U.N. can come to some sort of agreement on how to get him out of there. I personally would like to see him (And all the look a likes that he has pretend to be him every now and then) be sent to some prison where they could be but raped like the little bitches that they are. [Cool] After this it would be nice to see what Iraq could do ON THEIR OWN. Now I am sure they will need financial help. This rebuild of Iraq could be paid for by the U.S. citizens (those evil pricks.) And maybe even those Europeans. I think it would be nice for all of us to do. Maybe we could give them some guidance in getting everything up and running. Make sure that it isn't led by another mean tight ass dildo like the previous one was. After that, the rest of the world can leave them the fudge alone. And go on with life. BUT unfortunatly that won't happen. Bush as espy likes to call him, CAPTIAN HOOK! might be a pirate along with other countries. I don't blame people for thinking that. and I don't not think of it as a possiblity. Poeple rarely do anything unless their is somthing in it for themselves.

Back to my WAFFLE. Bin Ladin should be dead, and I can see your point that the U.S. Gov is using a lot of the emotions left over from 9/11 to gain support for this new fight. It is wrong, but it usually takes a lot to get America up off it's increasing fatty but to do somthing. So I also see why they are doing it.

And to the NEWBIE! I liked my ENT post. Silly stuff like that is expected from me. [Smile] Anyways welcome to the Forum. It will consume your life.

Okay I also have another off topic thread going so check it out. it is titled help!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:22 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Legolas,

Just one point, maybe we saw things different from this side of the ocean, but what we saw was that your wise (sic) and beloved president behaviour on 9/11 was the one of an ostrich, hidding his head in the ground and hoping the danger would go away, which in real terms means going to his nuke hideout and do not show up till he had a speach written by somebody else.

If you want a figure that I see that acted over what he was expected to was Rudolph Giuliani, the very first moment he was there supporting and everything even though his term was almost over and he didn't have votes to be won.

The face I saw of GW was of that kid who has been found redhanded and doesn't have any clue about how to get out of it.

By the way, I'll never criticise GW for his pronounciation, how I could dare?, I'll criticise his brother, Jeff, for refering to Aznar (our president) as "The president of the Spanish Republic", even though I wish that would be his title, our king hasn't resigned in the last days, so this is still a monarchy. Same with confusing deflaction and inflaction like GW did in Japan.

I dunno if you have heard about it but the infamous axis of evil was a term invented by a member of GW press and GW used it because it sounded cool. No other proof required.

As for identifying your country and your government, I'm sorry, but that's the way it works, we (Spain) are a country of nitwits because such is the government we have elected and which represent us ...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:31 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Kind of fun how CVB created this silly thread then vanished.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:00 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Firewall problems again. She was in the chat friday
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:46 am   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


quote:
Originally posted by Legolas:
I can't believe this. [Roll Eyes]

Okay Waffle King. Here is a little F.Y.I. [Wink] The president isn't my Nations favorite symbol; Yada-yada yada-yada

OK tree hugger.. If you'd pay more attention to my post you'd see that I said M-O-S-T Americans.

I don't ridicule accents or dialects by the way, I like them, actually. But I didn't know that pronouncing 'nuclear' as 'nucular' was a dialect, back where I come from it is considered a speech disorder.

And by the way, I'm comfortable with you using my regal name, but you will not refer to me as 'your waffle', 'your majesty' will do just fine. [Big Grin]

Peace!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:53 pm   Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics Reply with quote


Yeah, I tried to keep up... I really did but wow, people have been insanely posting. And I tried to find something to reply to but I think couldn't pick a single point to harp on.

My stance is still the same anyway. Show us proof, we should go to war. I know there are die hard supporters and opposers out there but I just want to make sure we have a reason, even if it is Iraq was and still is an evil country. Stop BSing around in the UN. Give them something firm and then move on.

I think I just lost heart with the argument. It's hard to believe there's actually a choice when people around you kept getting called up and sent over there.
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