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Yvond
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:30 pm   Post subject: Heated Discussions Reply with quote


One of the things that I have noticed while we have been discussing these rather sensitive topics is that people typically end up attacking the person putting forth their views in arrogance, instead of solely addressing the views themselves. As a result, people become defensive and antagonistic in response to the attacks on their character. Unfortunately, some of us here are more prone to these types of instigating remarks than others, and although it would be easy to point the fingers at the people (as in, more than 1) who do this, all of us are guilty in our response to those attacks by taking the bait set before us hook, line, and sinker. As a result, we respond in kind with remarks just as degrogatory, making us no better than anyone else.

Attacking a person directly while discussing these topics is in very poor taste. Now I know that some of you are thinking at this point, "This is coming from Yvond??? What a hypocrite. What a *beep*'in *beepbeep*." Well, I understand how some of you might feel that way, but I try very hard to always make a disctinction between the the material being presented and the people presenting it. All of you know that I have very strong views with regard to my faith in Jesus Christ and the perspective it brings to my world view, and at one point or another, most, if not all, have probably felt offended or upbraided by me. But with that said, I still try very hard to never attack a person directly. If I'm guilty of doing just that, then I ask for your forgiveness.

As we discuss these ideas, we bring unique perspectives based upon our cultural background, personal belief system, and the environment we've grown up with. These things all help to shape our character, and define who we are. Naturally, there will be disagreements that consequently arise among us, and vehement ones at that, based upon the violitle times we currently live in. But the true character of a person shows forth in the way we choose to handle these disagreements and present our arguements. We can continue to bash each other and act as children with all the finger pointing and name calling, or, demonstrating maturity, we can concentrate on the issues at hand, making it clear that we are not attacking a person's worth, but just the arguements put forth here.

Personally, I choose the later.

Last edited by Yvond on Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:38 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Much respect as always Yvond.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:39 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Besides the fact that you obviously are weird beyond repair, you made a good point in the first paragraph of your post..
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 6:02 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Yvond I completely disagree, and think you're a hypocrite for posting what you did.

You see that? I called you a hypocrite. Want to know why I think that is different from what you said is going on?

Because I really do think you're being a hypocrite. I'm not shouting out some random insult to flame you. I am making an observation and stating what I see.

SST is VERY civil for an internet forum. We do not have people logging on with posts such as "STUPID FAGGOT!" or other ad hominem. People also rarely use profanity beyond "crap" and that is all on their own without being modded. If someone is being called an idiot, or ignorant it is because that poster really thinks that person (and what they have said) is idiotic or ignorant, and they always go on to back up up their statement with WHY.

If you want to label someone or their post, back up what you say and don't generalize. This is what the people on SST always do, and that is why it is a pleasure to come here.

What you're doing Yvond is making yourself come out like a rose by inaccurately pointing out the faults in others. And more power to you, but I'm still going to call you on it.

You see Yvond, in a way you're right. You never do directly insult anyone. Especially not on the forum. No, your thing is to indirectly insult people on the chat board, and then play dumb and act coy when they call you on it.

Here's a little play I wrote:

Joe: I like soup.
Yvond: According to Jesus Chist, people who like soup go to hell.
Joe: WTF? Hey, shut up!
Yvond: Why are you getting mad? I wasn't directly talking about you.
Joe: You just said I was going to hell.
Yvond: No, I said that according to Jesus Christ people who eat soup go to hell.
Joe: Yeah, so you said I'm going to hell.
Yvond: I don't follow. If you like soup then you go to hell. That's a fact. Jesus said it. People who eat soup are sinners, but I wasn't necessarily referring to you.
Joe: DUDE! You just said that according to JC, people who eat soup go to hell. I had JUST said I eat soup before you said that. You were blatantly referring to me and said I'm going to hell!
Yvond: I still don't follow. I said IF you eat soup you're going to hell.
Joe: BUT I JUST SAID I EAT SOUP YOU JERK!
Yvond: Well if you eat soup then accoding to our savior Jesus Christ you are going to hell. If you're one of those people who eats soup then I'm sorry, but I was not trying to offend you and I apologize.

That's your thing Yvond. Apparently when speaking the teachings of Jesus Christ it's okay to "indirectly" make people feel bad about themselves, because you're just stating "facts" on the lessons of Jesus.

As long as the posters on SST back up their opinions with logic, examples or facts I'm personally fine with it. If the otherwise were to occur, I might actually need to finally mod something.

SST is the most civil, virtually unmodded forum I have ever come across on the internet and that is 100% thanks to the posters.... no matter what kind of imbeciles they may all be.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:47 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Eat more soup! Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 11:32 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


I am sorry this was just too funny for me to pass up. Cocles that seriously made me laugh. I think Cocles was right when he talked about the generalizing thing that everyone here does is more to the point of what in flames people. Most of us here know each other on a somewhat good basis. And it usually hurts us when someone does that. I'll give an example.

Back in the day when I would flirt with Sarbear you kept saying how we were so sinful. How we were planting seeds, that someday Sar and I would run off together.

That was lame dude. Never would have come close to happening. You see I know that has happened to other people. But that wouldn't have happened to Bear or myself. I have to reasons why. 1.) Bear is happily married… She is a dedicated women whom I sure would never do anything to close to that. Besides she never flirted. 2.) My rule, if a girl ever left her boyfriend for me, and he wasn't a jerk(such as hitting her, or verbally abusing her.) If she left a normal decent guy for me. Well then I couldn't date her. If she left one guy, she would most likely better deal me down the road.

Another example. I am sure you don't like it when you get generalized. When you get called a bible beater, or whatever. It hurts when someone calls you a name, or says something about you and they have nothing to back it up. If they have something to back it up well then you know that it is an observation. Like if I compared you to a Christian missionary. Like that you attack when people are feeling their most depressed, or lost. You come in to help like missionary do when they help the hungry in third world Muslim countries. You step up and say oh darn, looks like your god sucks. Here's a sandwich. Oh wait a minute whose God? Huh say it! Who is the savior? That’s right. Jesus. Now come over here and have that sandwich. Speaking of I am sure hungry now.

Well anyways that would hurt cause I know nothing of what you do. I really have no backup. I have not really experienced you doing that. Anyways this went on long enough. Time for an sandwich.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 2:00 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


1. I never said that you were "so sinful" for flirting with Sarbear...gotta love the way people continually put words into my mouth that were never spoken by me...and then pretend that it's verbatim. You and Cocles should each get a prize for that, I think.

2. I never said that you *would* run off with Sarbear....only that it was possible. In fact, my exact words were:

"Marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman, and faithfulness is a key component to the marriage if they are at all serious about spending the rest of their lives together. Two become one. The fact that you are constantly dropping flirtatious comments to her is an indication that even if you think it is all good natured and harmless, it's not. You are tearing at the relationship between Sarbear and her husband, sowing seeds that could eventually bear terrible fruit."

Could, not would. There's a big difference, don't you think?

3. If she's married, and you know she's married, then why flirt with her at all? What's the motivation? The purpose? What do you hope to get out of it? Continual, private messages from Sarbear? The envy of the other guys here? A rise? A little pickle tickle?

To me, it seems like an incredibly selfish, desperate, and stupid thing to do no matter how much you try to spin it and pass it off as harmless fun, personally sanctioned by your girlfriend. But hey, maybe that's just me, the "soup-hating" hypocrite speaking.

4. Finally, what was written here could have been written by anyone, not just a person with a Christian perspective. It's good advice for *any* relationship, especially since this type of behavior can open doors that, while it may not get you into trouble now, may lead to serious consequences later in your life. Didn't Cocles even tell everyone that he's given up his bachelor-eske type days now that he's entered into an exclusive realtionship with Pixie? But hey, if you wish to continue to flirt with a married woman Leggy, go ahead, and knock yourself out. Maybe next you can try it with BQ---I'm sure Jeric will love it.

Just don't let me ever catch you doing that with my wife.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 3:31 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Two things yvond.

1. I used to flirt with sarbear. Why? Only because it was some what humorus. The fact that I was labled as a little puppy around here made my actions seem somewhat fitting. The fact is Yvond, people flirt, Now flirting has a huge range of meaning. You see when people are serious things can go wrong. When people mearly throw silly complimants, whil acting as cheesy as they can, is more laughable than threating.

2. I would never attempt to flirt with your wife. One because i have never met her. Two, i really would have to question what type of women would marry you let alone date you, just like you question my gf. The thing is trust matters. Beause life has problems at every corner, and keeping a strong relationship is hard work. both need to trust eachother. I could careless if someone flirted with my lady they way i did with anyone here. I trust her.

Now I understand you may not have much trust with your wife. Probably due to some insecurities with yourself. I would be surprised if some little kid lets say at the age of 10 had a crush on your wife. Are you going to be pissed at that little boy? Come-on Yvond. Get a bit of reality in your life. I have always been a dopey kid that when flirting with anyone they have always taking it as funny, and maybe even flatering. It would be like someone with downsyndrome flirting with you. Ya just can't take it serious.

I guess in closing, all I have to say is leave your sermons to things more relevant. Pick your battles, don't jump in and harp on someone while they are just being anouying/goofy/or harmless. And remeber, Trust is a huge part of life. You need to have more faith in people, and not just JC. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 3:43 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Why must you insist upon putting forth wrong assumptions as fact?

There is tremendous trust between my wife and I. There are no insecurities regarding whether or not we will be faithful to each other.

Why must you also question my wife's motives for marrying me, while taking a swipe at my character at the same time? She loves me dearly, as do I her. Was the comment necessary, or did you only make it in order to try and goad me?

Tell you what. Maybe next time you "see" Sarbear, you should have her ask her husband whether or not he likes the fact that some college guy is/was flirting with his wife, regardless of how "harmless" it was. I'd be interested in hearing his response. Somehow, I don't think that he'd see it all as just "anouying/goofy/or harmless" fun...

But then again, being 27, maybe I'm just old school, where having respect for a lady actually used to mean something.

Last edited by Yvond on Sat Apr 19, 2003 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Oblique
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 3:59 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Ok what do we have here.

Let me see if I get this right.

1) Yvond getting raked by Cocles for saying people are sometimes rude on this website. (Hmm ... this advice, if followed, would require Cocles to excercise self control showing kindness to others ..... a possibility in his present state?..... processing .... processing... NOT A CHANCE!!!) O.K. that explains Cocles.

2) Yvond getting raked by Legolas for his innocent, yet questionable flirting with Sarbear. O.K. Legolas and Sarbear are both Ok in my book, and I believe that they would not do anything stupid. Very Good People.
Even so, Yvond has a good point. Don't flirt with other peoples spouses; especially Oblique's (married 23 years and loving it) She is my woman alone, a looker too Smile and the mother of my three kids. Back off boys!!!

3) Yvond being mocked for expressing views consistent with a Biblical World View (no surprise in light of the direction of current post modern culture).

Add it all together .... hmm....

I only have this to say to Yvond .... Matt 5:11-16,
No one else need read this passage. Apparently it won't offend Yvond.

BTW thanks Satan for posting. Notwithstanding popular views, I always knew you were around.

Your signature is very appropriate.... Nice Pic.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:47 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Mmmm good ol' Oblique. Smile

You see Ob, you're doing the same thing you always do.

For those of you who don't know, Oblique likes to swoop in and take swipes then dissappear back into the shadows. Mostly because he posts at work so doesnt have much time to stick around.

The problem is, he often doesn't completely read what's going on, and his posts reflect that. (Which is odd since he's supposedly an attorney so should be good at picking up points while skimming).

He's the type of guy who'd log on with a message like, "Where does this Jeric guy get off logging on like he owns the whole site?"

Ob's also almost as big a bible beater as Yvond and always the first (and usually the only) person to jump on the chat and defend Yvond's faith and his criticism of others. He also doesn't like me much. Smile

Ob, since you're skimming I'll spell it out for you easy.
I was not nailing Yvond for criticizing others.
I was nailing him for criticizing then acting like he wasn't.

Yvond, Ob, quoting Christ to infer some of us might be going to hell is mean. I don't care if Yvond thinks he's saving us. It is unkind and not appreciated.

I'm goofing around. You two are serious.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2003 6:40 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Well, I feel quite accomplished.

I reduced Cocles to name calling (Oblique is a Bible Beater)
and making up stupid things I have never said to Jeric. (Actually, I talked to Jeric today. He is one cool dude.)

If a person makes good points, just call them a Bible Beater Cocles. Yea.... Don't address the substance of what that person has to say. Just paste a label on them that you think is negative. Works for me .... NOT!!!

Cocles I don't dislike you. I just dislike your rudeness, pride and arrogance. I can separate the two. I find you to be a gifted and intelligent. You also posses a quick wit. You merely are a person who has an opinion of himself that is about seven levels higher than what it should be. In short, you have great potential. I just think you are full of yourself (full of pride instead of merely confident). I find that attribute offensive. If you can call Yvond a hypocrite, then I can, without name calling, tell you what attributes you display. In short, can't you take what you dish out bud?

The bottom line is that you are intolerant to Yvond because he has embraced a biblical world view. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that. It is clear from your earlier attacks directed to Yvond and your more recent rant against me.

Now that is what I call hypocritical. I find it silly that persons like you who call for tolerance of their own rude behavior to refuse to practice tolerance toward Christians. Its almost laughable .... as I said, almost.

As for you merely goofing around. I don't buy it Cocles.
As a famous man once said, "There is much truth in jest."
Anyway, your comments were made with the intent to injure and embarrass. The fact that you failed in your goal is beside the point.

I look forward to a more substantive response from you in the future. I know you have it in you. You are intellegent and able.

Happy Easter,

Oblique
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:40 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Wow Ob! Very Happy Thank you for confirming my point about you making posts without actually reading the message you're replying to.

I never wrote that you made that remark about Jeric. I listed it as an example of the _type_ of thing you might say. Tell you what, go back right now and actually read my post (that is of course assuming you're actually reading this one).

Would you like a couple real examples? Happy to oblige! Smile

How about the time you logged on to tell me to stop bragging about how great I am? Only problem was SlowMo and I had traded nicks for the morning. Easy mistake, except that everyone else on the chat knew you were talking to my favorite Belgian, because, unlike you, we were all actually part of the conversation. Or how about the time you ordered me to stop flirting with Pixie, because she didn't like it when we had already been going out for two months?

I've got a few more if you're interested. Smile You've always been quick to judge and see me in the worst possible light.

Anyway, had you actually read the first post I made in this thread you'd see that if I call someone a name it is not ad hominem. I truly think that that is what they are and it applies to the "substance" at hand.

I have no problem with Yvond being Christian, but he is more than that. He's a bible beater. Why? Because he pushes his beliefs on others that's why. Because he is well known to take a comment made by someone on the chat and apply it to the teachings of Christ to show that that person better change or they're going to hell.

You, Oblique, support him when he does this. I have watched you log on and help out by adding seriously, "Jesus is the only way!" That is why, my dear Mr. Ob, I think you are a bible beater too.

I do not dislike Yvond, I dislike what he does sometimes. Yvond will agree that he and I have seen eye to eye before and been on the same side of a debate. Heck, two days ago we were goofing off in the chat. But I'm not surprised you think I hate him, only name call and never address the substance of what anyone has to say. You never bother to read the entire chat or previous posts in the forum. You make no effort to put comments in context nor figure out completely what is going on.

But as for my rudeness, pride and arrogance? You bet! With pleasure! And you can always count on me! Very Happy

I take that as a compliment, Obi, because when it comes to arrogance your ego might even exceed mine. Heck even your nick refers to your tendency to log on and preach some self righteous criticism of someone (usually me Wink ), only to log off right away so no one can respond as you smugly lean back in your chair thinking how awesome you are for gracing us with your presence and showing everyone who's boss. If you don't like people with too much pride then maybe you shouldn't post Matthew 5:16 (a verse about showing off your faith) or start your messages with, "Well, I feel quite accomplished." Isn't that pride too? Also rather smug. Big thumbs up for you! Smile

Kudos as well for your tactic of complimenting me to look like the good guy. More power to you and I'm interested to see if it works. Wink

The fact is Oblique, guys with big ego's tend to either get along great, or hate each other. That's why you haven't liked me from the start. I'm sure if SlowMo were on more often you wouldn't like him either. Or Legolas, who seems to be coming into his own. Wink

I agree there is much truth in jest, but I also think there is a line between calling someone a doofus and telling them that according to Christ they're going to hell. I know you think the latter is acceptable because you are "saving" that person, but I disagree.

I don't hate Yvond because he is Christian. I don't hate Yvond at all. The fact is, I don't know Yvond well enough to have that extreme an opinion either way. I just wish Yvond would stop applying the teachings of Christ to the way other people live. I know he thinks he's helping people, but all he's doing is hurting them. More so than I ever could by calling them a dingus.

Oblique, you have always taken whatever I write and put it in the worst possible context and the worst possible light. Like Morglum before you, I think you have decided your role here is to protect others from my petty wrath. More power to you. Just don't pretend you don't enjoy these little skirmishes. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:43 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Hmmm ... view it as my role to protect others from your petty wrath?

Sure ... why not ....I will concede that point. That is what I am doing.

Due too commitments to family and friends.
A more significant response will be made on Monday.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:14 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Well … it a lovely Monday morning in here Southern California.

I have my coffee.
I have read my morning newspaper.
I feel informed.
I feel loved (having spent time with family and friends on Sunday).

Must be time to roll up my sleeves and dissect the big C’s diatribe in search for

"A SUBSTANTIVE RESPONSE"

Now I guess that I better define what I mean by "a substantive response." If you look at the very top of this thread you will note that there is an initial post by Yvond. Yvond raised an issue for debate. The issue related to whether or not people should be civil to each other when sensitive issues are being discussed. I think that is a worthy issue to discuss. So, in the context of this thread, replies addressing that issue are substantive responses to that issue. What is not "a substantive response" is any personal attack or name calling. Such tactics are used to derail a discussion of the substantive issue. Unfortunately, these tactics are usually used by persons who have little to say of relevance to the issue at hand.

With this in mind, lets dig in shall we?

Cocles begins by making a personal attack against me arguing that I make posts without reading the message. Hmm … Should I actually spend a significant amount of time pointing out that Cocles has done exactly what he has accused me of (I never accused Cocles of representing that I actually said the things he made up, only that he made up things I never said)? Nope … should not spend too much time on that … Personal Attacks do not constitute a substantive response.

Move along …. Move along.

OK what do we have next in his rant.

Aww Crud. All Cocles is doing is making another stupid personal attack on me consisting of examples of chat scenario allegations. Other than making it clear that he has missed the point of what I meant when I called for a substantive response, should I respond to this drivel? Nope … not worth much of my time. Not a substantive response.

I must continue my search.

Ok what is his third point. Geez …. Another personal attack???? Ok, now I am judgmental, but wait, what do we have here … a glimmer of hope. Cocles makes a bald assertion (albeit not supported by any logical argument) that his name calling is justified because name calling relates to the substance at hand. OK can anyone tell me how calling Yvond a Bible Beater relates to whether or not people should be treated with civility when sensitive issues are being discussed? Am I missing a connect here somewhere? You see my friends when someone name calls they distract from the issue. Thanks for making my point Cocles.

Let’s see what is next.

Oh wait … what do we have here? … FINALLY!!!! HUZZAH!!! Cocles after littering this thread with superfluous flotsam and jetsam finally makes a point. OK time to look more carefully. What is he saying (and I have the duty to try to take it at face value)?

a) Cocles states he has no problem with Yvond being a Christian.
b) Cocles just does not want Yvond to share his beliefs to anyone (huh?).
c) Cocles believes that Yvond is telling people that if they do not change their behavior they will burn in hell.
d) Cocles believes that I support Yvond, and accuses me of saying, "Jesus is the only way!" (errr.... really? wow)
e) Cocles states he does not dislike Yvond and has seen eye to eye before on prior issues [nice to know].
f) Cocles admits being rude, prideful and arrogant.
g) Cocles postulates that I may be more arrogant than he (always something to be concerned about for sure, but Cocles does not know me well enough to make that …. Dare I say it … judgment!!!)

but then, DOH!!!, No … No … No… Cocles then goes into another personal attack about me smugly leaning back in my chair and that accusing me of being bossy. (wait did Cocles actually call me bossy? Cocles??? Ok stop laughing and get focused). Moving on… Moving on.

In the next section, Cocles exercises intellectual totalitarianism by saying that I was wrong to even place the reference to Matt 5: 11-16 for Yvond to read on the thread. Apparently, the contents of the Bible so scary to Cocles that a mere reference to them, directed to someone else, makes him angry. Sad. The 1st amendment of the constitution comes to mind.

Now the next section of Cocle’s post is interesting and worthy of discussion, although it is off point. He gives me kudos for my "tactic" (as he calls it) of complimenting him so that I can "look like the good guy." He is interested to see if it works. Works in what way Cocles? I am not interested in any popularity contest. I am interested in a stimulating exchange of ideas on the subject that Yvond posted. If you fear that my posts might work to destroy your reputation with your friends, and I might become some sort of favorite over you, you have missed my point. I don’t care about that. I just agree with Yvond, that civil discussion of substantive ideas is a better way. I don’t want to make you less popular. Just more civil.

Move Along .. Move Along.

Finally, Cocles gets back on point.

h) Cocles concedes there is much truth in jest (and restates his offense at being told he may being going to hell / fair enough).
i) Cocles expresses his belief that I find it OK for people to share that others may be going to hell because they are "saving people", but he disagrees.
j) Cocles admits that he does not know Yvond well enough to like or dislike him (again fair enough)
k) Cocles admits that Yvond believes that he is helping people (important point).
l) Cocles takes a stand that he believes that people who share a biblical perspective hurt people (more than he can by his name calling).

Now .. ignoring the last jab against me, what do I have here of substance relating to Yvond’s issue.

Cocles wants Christians, including Yvond, to shut up because he finds their point of view offensive. Even so, he would be highly irritated if anyone tried to restrict his liberty to share his ideas in any fashion that he wishes with intent to injure or embarrass by use of personal attacks.

In an earlier post up this thread, Cocles said as follows:

"Yvond, Ob, quoting Christ to infer some of us might be going to hell is mean. I don't care if Yvond thinks he's saving us. It is unkind and not appreciated."

I find that quote interesting. Above Cocles postulates that Yvond is sharing his faith because he believes that all people are going to hell and wants to "save" them. But he also states that inferring that people may be going to hell is "mean". Does this make sense? Lets apply this logic to another situation so I can make it more clear.

a) The national park service is concerned that if people stand too close to the edge of the grand canyon because they might fall in and die.
b) The national park service, being concerned about the safety of others, posts signs on the rim of the grand canyon telling people to restrain their personal liberty by not standing too close to the rim.

Conclusion according to Cocles logic: The national park service is mean and unkind to infer that people may fall into the grand canyon if they stand too close to the edge.

Does this make any sense to anyone at all???

Now obviously, if Yvond is the "Bible Beater" that Cocles says, I don’t expect everyone to agree with Yvond. They may conclude that Yvond’s concerns about hell are not justified. Even so, I believe that Yvond should be able to present and defend the substance of such beliefs on their own merit if he wishes to do so.

Also, I do not expect everyone to agree with me all the time. That would be unrealistic.

I just think that it is "intolerant" to intimidate Yvond into shutting up for merely having a Biblical World View. What if Yvond is correct? Isn’t it loving for him to share his concern for everyone’s safety? I think so. Whether you agree with him or not.

As for the substance of Yvond’s post, I agree that people should, in most cases, be civil to one another. I think that the exchange of ideas, no matter what you believe, is of value. I personally believe that all people are precious (yes including Cocles).

I have toyed with Cocles in this thread, but I want all to know that I stand on what I said earlier. He is intelligent and able. A person of great potential and a gifted wit. I am in awe at the possibilities of what he could become.

Nuff Said.

Oblique
_________________
For every complex issue in life there is a simple easy to understand and easy to apply wrong answer.
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