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(Topic Split) Operation: Iraqi Freedom
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Norway Sensei
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 5:37 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Ok... that last post was so intense I felt like I was reading a Tarantino-script. Laughing Just try to discuss the subject and not other peoples ignorance. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:31 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Yeah, sorry... the condescending thing just sort of comes naturally when I read stuff like that. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:41 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Would you guys PLEASE try and have a thought about the FACT that Iraq has not been harbouring terrorists. "Saddam Husein and his terrorist allies"??? LMAO... B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.

Terrorists are ideologists who think they need violence to serve their cause... And believe you me, not a terrorist in the world would dedicate his life for Saddam.. He's not worth it in their eyes, he's not a muslim fundamentalist, he has no ideals, he's a selfish dictator, is all, he's just another simple dictator, like Ceaucesku in Rumania, or Mobuto in Congo, and numerous others.

The good thing now is that he is deposed; I'm not that happy about the way it happened. I'm glad it went well, I'm okay with the whole thing, but like I already said I'm sad to read all these wrong statements in this thread. The France bashing, the UN bashing, the pacifist bashing, the guilty by suspicion crap, you name it. Oh last time I checked 12 years ago, Bush Sr. was in the white house, and he stopped the gulf war, because he thought Saddam was still useful as a balance for Iran, now, stop whining about Clinton.

BTW : the invasion by Iraq of Kuwait was very provoked by the Kuwaitis.. They disrespected oil price agreements, which was driving Iraq bankrupt... Saddam invaded because the US were big buddies of his (remember the US interests in the Iran-Iraq conflict) back then, but the US turned on him, and so did the rest of the world.

EDIT (one hour after post) :
Guys, no matter where you stand in this debate, I'd like to point out that I respect your opinions. Discussion is essential, I've seen good points in this debate, by pro-war guys, as well as the others.

Now I'm off to have my weekly dose of Belgian beer.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:26 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Ah SlowMy, did Yvond make you feel guilty in the "Heated Discussions" thread? Nice job defending the Iraq with its invasion of Kuwait. And even more Kudos for then literally saying it was because of the USA.

It's always because the USA, isn't it? Smile

You know it was Belgium's fault they got Blitzkrieged in WW2, for being the back door into France. In fact, it was because of the USA that the Nazi's invaded, because they believed the Americans wouldn't do a thing about it.

Yep, it's always that pesky USA!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 12:36 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Dude, Bush didn't leave Saddam in power because he was a balance for Iran; he left him in power because they all thought if he took Saddam down that Iran would make a move and try and take Iraq. They were fresh off their 80's war.

That, and everybody and their brother was quite afraid, and the media with them, that there would be "another Vietnam"... nobody wanted to occupy Iraq.

And really, "Saddam invaded because the US were big buddies of his..." What the heck does that statement mean? I'm sure there was more to that thought, but leaving that sentence unfinished implies the thought was... well, I don't know what it was. You constantly, constantly deride the U.S. for invading Iraq because of oil; we hear it over and over again... and then you say that because of oil prices, it was cool for Iraq to invade Kuwait? Make up your mind! Oh, but they changed their minds, so hey, at least I can *understand* why Iraq did it, you know... if it's not cool for the US to do it, then Iraq can't do it and garner your sympathy, either.

The France bashing, the UN bashing, the pacifist bashing... click back, and you see G.W. bashing, U.S. bashing, war bashing... you even see stuff that borders on defending Saddam. Everyone on the other side is really sad to read all *those* wrong statements in the thread.

And to cap it off-

Quote:
And believe you me, not a terrorist in the world would dedicate his life for Saddam..


Cept uh, haven't there been a bunch of suicide bombings on the U.S. forces in Iraq? D'oh!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:33 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Man this is getting ugly. All that hasle because I just gave the reason Iraq had for its agression toward Kuwait. I didn't say it was right, I just know it is more logical than just assuming it was a move towards 'world domination'.

And suicide bombers against a military invasion aren't terrorist, by a long shot. Seriously.

You guys scare me, you'd accuse me of being a murderer because I have kitchen knife. Then you'd break and enter my home, and whatever I do would prove my guilt.

And Yak, I never said it was only for the oil. It's about control in the middle east, that's what's it about. Control now that the Saudis are proving to be untrustworthy, because they DO harbour terrorrists.

Oh there is this tiny anecdote, 2 days ago the iraqi mobs ransacked every ministry building in Bagdad. Except for the ministry of oil, which was.... guarded by US forces. Conclusion : no it's not only about the oil.

Finally WWII references are lame. And wrong assumptions about WWII are retarded.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:42 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Saddam's justification for invading Kuwait was to begin to restore the region's borders to the map that was around before WWI. Current nation borders were established by the British; Saddam found some ancient documents that he said proved Kuwait was rightfully Iraqi, and he was restoring part of his people's homeland. You can decide whatever you think Saddam's real motivations were off of that. I don't think that anybody assumed that it was all for world domination.

Even though everyone assumes that's why the US does everything.

You type as though oil and control in the middle east are two separate things. Why the hell control the middle east- for the monopoly on the world sand market? Or the multi-billion-dollar camel trade? Control in the middle east is oil, but very coy on your part.

And Cocles's assumption wasn't wrong- Belgium did get Blitzed because it was the back door into France. Well, I suppose it did give the Germans a big foothold on the waffle industry. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:56 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Since in mere numbers I am apparently losing this debate, I could invite some buddies of mine to jump into this thread... oh wait... somebody did that before... Never mind.

Yak, it's not about being coy or anything, in fact even Cocles agreed with me on the point that control was the reason for US intrest in the Iraq conflict. It really is, read the work of Wolfowitz and co (check the link : http://www.newamericancentury.org/). That's what it's about...

Oh, I'll indulge you on some WWII stuff : imho France made a big mistake by only reinforcing around the maginot line. And Germany made a VERY big gamble by throwing quasi 90% of their might against Belgium and Holland. Now for a country with an army nearly a hundred times smaller, what the hell do you expect? We held them back long enough for the rich, famous and Brittish to escape via our ports. Now let's let that subject rest.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 3:44 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


Yes I agree that it's about control, but I think you and I disagree over how much control. Smile

And everyone knows that Belgium was invaded for the beer. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 5:06 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Quote:
Cocles said: And everyone knows that Belgium was invaded for the beer.


Oh... I get it now. So France was invaded for the wine then? Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 5:39 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Naw... France was invaded because that's weekend sport for the Germans. The wine is just a pleasant perk. Surprised

And thank you, SlowMo, but we knew already what France and Germany did... that's why he called Belgium the Back Door.

The easy response to your Oil Ministry comment is that hey, we can let looters ransack the Intelligence Ministry, or the Torture Ministry, no big loss. But since Iraq's economy is completely based around oil, maybe keeping that facility intact is working just as much in Iraq's interest as in that of the United States. Just so you realize that the oil itself isn't actually IN the Oil Ministry building.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:44 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"
Naw... France was invaded because that's weekend sport for the Germans. The wine is just a pleasant perk.
"


Just to put my 2 cents worth on a non-related fact, the reason why the RAF wasn't swamped over by the Luftwaffe at the beginning of the Battle of England was because the Nazis had lost 1469 planes, most of them shot down by those do-no-good, cowardly, layaback, worthless French. It gave the RAF the time to regather and go on to fight the extraordinary battle they did.

Another fact Very Happy is that the French wine-makers hid their best wines, the wine the Nazis looted were only second and third best. Many of the bottles offered to the Allied soldiers when they freed France came from those hidden stacks.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:02 am   Post subject: Reply with quote


Yak E. Tory wrote:

And thank you, SlowMo, but we knew already what France and Germany did... that's why he called Belgium the Back Door.


Duhh, I read his post too... Thank you likewise. Maybe you can read my previous post again and try to see the point that it was a reply to the Back Door comment.

Yak E. Tory wrote:

The easy response to your Oil Ministry comment is that hey, we can let looters ransack the Intelligence Ministry, or the Torture Ministry, no big loss. But since Iraq's economy is completely based around oil, maybe keeping that facility intact is working just as much in Iraq's interest as in that of the United States.


let them ransack hospitals, schools, museums, the ministries for public health, and irrigation... you name it.. bad god forbid they ransack the ministry for oil ... economy first, then health, then culture, or what?

since it appears to me that people don't actually read what I'm saying, and only comment on like 10% of what I'm saying, I might as well give up.

Yak E. Tory wrote:
Just so you realize that the oil itself isn't actually IN the Oil Ministry building.


Either you think I'm stupid, or you're stupid yourself.. Oh wait, there's no mutual exclusion.. Both propositions might be true...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:10 am   Post subject: coffee? Reply with quote


"Naw... France was invaded because that's weekend sport for the Germans. The wine is just a pleasant perk."
well if it was not for wine or weekend sport did they do it for coffee?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 3:04 pm   Post subject: Reply with quote


From what I've read in several sources, after the initial looting began, hospitals have become the priority as well.

So yeah I'd say, "Economy & Health" then "Culture".

Since you're obviously referring to the museum that got ransacked I'd like to point out that the museum curators now suspect it was at least several of their own employees who took the good stuff.
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