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Caray
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Oct 17, 2002
Member#: 243
Posts: 408
Location: France
    
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 Posted:
Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:50 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
 
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SlowMo,
Let's see. Osama was the head of Al-Quaeda. The (censured) crazy butchers who hijacked the planes were Al-Quaeda operatives(unless you have information the rest of us do not ? And the internet rumour-mill do not count ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ).
*scratch head*
Nope, still say that Osama was responsible for 9/11
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
_________________
My reality cheque bounced |
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 Legolas
Commander
Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Member#: 178
Posts: 857
Location: Drunkest state in USA
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Posted:
Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:19 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Okay so yesterday. It looks like they have new information from O Bin LadIn. WHO WAS And IS responsible for 9/11. (That S.O.B. didn’t even care to deny it.) I agree with Yvond on a lot of things but I lost him when he got in the religious aspect.
So here is my thing. I hate war. I do not want it. At least not with out all of the U.N.S support. That’s just crazy if we don't have everyone’s backing. So yes I would like for Bush to wait until we do have support. But I don't want them to support us only after Sadam or some other terrorist attacks us or one of our allies. If you watch the news ever you would have seen that last nights recording of Osama Bin Ladin was telling Iraq to have a religious war with the U.S. and anyone who helps us. (Looks at yvonds here's.) (I guess that could be why some of you in Europe may be a it frightened. I would be. You live so close to that monster.)
Look I guess I don't know what to say to you people who hate the U.S. SOO solo much. I mean I know everyone loves most of our pop culture, but for some reason we are still evil America. Yvond thinks that’s because of the lack of god. (We know I disagree.) People always think we are trying to take over the world. Okay and maybe we have. By influencing people with our retched western culture.
I think our discussion here has proven a few things.
1. We will never agree. There are too many false and inaccurate assumptions along with misleading information. The only way for us to see eye-to-eye is to wait and see what happens. (These scenarios are with out U.S. interference.) Either sadam attacks first, or sends Al Quaeda to do it. Or they do nothing, and we are proven wrong.
2. Most of you think it’s all about Oil. I believe you would have a different Idea if our president weren’t an oilman. I think you are missing some things though. We get most of our Oil from Iran. Iraq is third in the world for oil. We don't need him. And I pray to god that we get over or need for oil so we can stop needing it from Iran as well. That would hurt the world market a bit though. Trust me. If we wanted that oil we could have taken in during the gulf war. I think this war isn't about oil at all.
3. We don't want war with IRAQ! No one here does. We are just a little pissed of with the jerk off attitude that they have. If Iraq wants peace like you say they do! Then why the hell don't they let the UN INSPECTORS, INSPECT! I AGREE WITH YOU THAT EVERY COUNTRY HAS WEAPONS. They would be stupid not too. (We live in a world where the touch of buttons can destroy each other.)(I blow you up you blow me up.) It is scary. So yes we have them. BUT WE ARE NOT A GLOBAL THREAT. IRAQ IS! Therefore he should be allowing the UN to inspect. STOP THE BULLSHIT SADAM! IF you don't want to be thought of as a threat then comply with the UN.S TERMS!
I rest my thoughts. And I will leave you with this! America, (along with me) does not want war. We know it will be the worst in history if it happens. We do not want to see our sons and fathers coming home in body bags. But we want safety; we don't want these terrorists killing our innocent people. Yes it happens in other countries, but we are a country that can possibly stop it. Please I beg you if you know how we can solve this. Let the world know! |
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SlowMo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Mar 20, 2002
Member#: 29
Posts: 390
Location: Ghent, Belgium
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Posted:
Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:18 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Saddam will send al-queda??? Leggy, in some ways you made some points, but that quote is just TOO dumb.
_________________
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry.'" -- Gary Larson |
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Caray
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Oct 17, 2002
Member#: 243
Posts: 408
Location: France
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Posted:
Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:30 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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quote:
Originally posted by Legolas:
[QB]If you watch the news ever you would have seen that last nights recording of Osama Bin Ladin was telling Iraq to have a religious war with the U.S. and anyone who helps us. (Looks at yvonds here's.) (I guess that could be why some of you in Europe may be a it frightened. I would be. You live so close to that monster.)
That's the sad point. Until then Saddam hunted the religious fanatics because they wanted to bring him down. Now he is courting them.
But what we are really frightened of is an explosion of religious hysteria in the Middle East and among our own immigrant population (5 millions Muslims in France out of 60 millions inhabitants, most of whom are quite peaceful. But as you know it takes only a few to make a lot of damages and we've had plenty of bombings through the years to make the point).
quote:
Look I guess I don't know what to say to you people who hate the U.S. SOO solo much. I mean I know everyone loves most of our pop culture, but for some reason we are still evil America. Yvond thinks that’s because of the lack of god. (We know I disagree.) People always think we are trying to take over the world. Okay and maybe we have. By influencing people with our retched western culture.
The second sad thing was that we had knee-jerk grumbling-against-the-Americans more than anti-americanism. But anti-americanism is as much on the rise now as anti-Europeanism (and anti-French) is in the US. When I read the more virulent French and US newspapers they sound exactly alike. And they only quote each other, not the milder-toned papers. Talk about tunnel vision.
As for the rest of the world, many countries have exacerbated (even fanatical) patriotism and blame-anyone-but-themselves reactions for every single problem they have. And the US is big, powerful, and loud. Perfect target. (Europeans get their own share of blame but we are not as powerful and visible and it's easier to have a single target. That way they don't have to strain their few working braincells and learn new slogans).
quote:
1. We will never agree. There are too many false and inaccurate assumptions along with misleading information.
I agree. There's real anger now between our governements and that's not a recipe for accurate information. Stupid.
quote:
Either sadam attacks first, or sends Al Quaeda to do it. Or they do nothing, and we are proven wrong.
Push a dictator's back against the wall and he will do anything to survive. I read in a military study that the only thing that stopped him from using every chemical he had during the Gulf War was that the US command stopped before reaching Baghdad.
He doesn't command Al-Quaeda but I'm afraid they may ally
quote:
2. Most of you think it’s all about Oil. I believe you would have a different Idea if our president weren’t an oilman.... If we wanted that oil we could have taken in during the gulf war. I think this war isn't about oil at all. .
I'll find the link to the US governement paper saying how to share the Irakian oil after the war. It makes for interesting reading. I think oil wasn't the main reason but was a powerful attraction for many very powerful lobbies who started pushing for war.
quote:
3. We don't want war with IRAQ! No one here does. We are just a little pissed of with the jerk off attitude that they have. If Iraq wants peace like you say they do! Then why the hell don't they let the UN INSPECTORS, INSPECT! I AGREE WITH YOU THAT EVERY COUNTRY HAS WEAPONS.
I totally agree, the bastard has been playing both sides against the middle and has probably hidden something. On the other hand by saying at the very beginning that even if Saddam complied, the US would still attack and houst him, Bush did destroy every single mean of pressure the UN could have used. Which pissed off everyone else.
quote:
I rest my thoughts. And I will leave you with this! America, (along with me) does not want war.... Please I beg you if you know how we can solve this. Let the world know!.
Way too late I'm afraid. But I hope. And hope. And hope.
_________________
My reality cheque bounced |
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Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted:
Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:03 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Thanks to Caray I don't need to post anything, as she said everything I would have. Two Cocs up. |
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EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posted:
Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:29 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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quote:
Either sadam attacks first, or sends Al Quaeda to do it. Or they do nothing, and we are proven wrong.
I just wanted to add something to this. Iraq hates Al Quida, just likes Jews hate Palestinians, I simply don’t see them allying like that. Secondly, Saddam in is not going to attack the US, how because he simply cant. Like I said in my last post, the farthest he can reach is about 140km outside Iraq. Saddam WILL fight for his own land ON HIS OWN LAND, with the support of his own people, and this is respectable. If the US was invaded by Russia, say tomorrow, US generals would give two shits about the invading soldiers, and gas them, napalm them, do whatever it takes for the freedom of their land. Same initiatives apply to Saddam. If the US starts a war on Iraq, which they plan to do, Saddam will do everything in his power, which isn’t much to begin with, to keep the land of his country. Now if you wanna call him a madman after that, or him using respectable means to eradicate an unwelcome intruder, thats up to you.
quote:
Then why the hell don't they let the UN INSPECTORS, INSPECT! I AGREE WITH YOU THAT EVERY COUNTRY HAS WEAPONS.
Um, its funny how you say this, but it’s the US that wont let inspectors inspect. Iraq has opened its doors to every location the inspectors have asked. AND THAT IS A FACT, not misleading information.
This just shows that Iraq is actually complying more then is visible. By every location, that means into top-secret areas, viewing of government files and so forth. Imagine how hard that must be to allow. If the US was under inspection and was ordered to open the Pentagon and all its secrets, I would bet u my bottom dollar the US would resist. Think about it.
About the oil thing, one of the very few things the US actually knows its gonna do after bombing everything to shreds, and that’s divide the oil. Where do you think most of it is going? IT has also cost millions already to move forces to ready for battle, how are they going to pay for this. Very simple, the very natural resource they are after. SO its logical now that they must have war, otherwise they would have lost considerable finances.
No one saying yes to war even cares about how to set up a new governmet, how to help the supposed Iraqi people they have "freed" from this mad dictator, atleast not on the government side. I’ll leave it at that.
And yea I guess none of us really will agree, but its better to talk about it in hopes that someone will change their mind and come to their senses instead of going off and killing innocent people, because thats what your going to get if this results in war.
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
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Cocles
Commodore
Joined: Mar 06, 2002
Member#: 15
Posts: 2587
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted:
Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:46 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Eyedea, you are so adamant in your defense of Iraq that I can't help but wonder if you're in Vancouver or really in Baghdad.
How does the Tigris River look this time of year? |
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EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posted:
Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:18 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Heh I’m as Canadian as they come. And yea I can agree to disagree, but just because a report is inconclusive does not mean Iraq is not co-operating. Inconclusive means they haven’t found any weapons, but haven’t searched every nook and cranny.
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By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
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Legolas
Commander
Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Member#: 178
Posts: 857
Location: Drunkest state in USA
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Posted:
Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:52 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Eyedea I don't understand how or where you are getting your "facts". Maybe you uncle is Sadam, And you feel bad about how the world thinks about him. Maybe thats why you feel soo inclined to defend him. 
I am so sorry that this issue is pressing every bone in your body. It is in mine as well. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Some of us would like to agree to disagree, and then there are some who are sooo anit-american and stubburn that they can't let it go.
Do you understand that this world is can not be just left alone? The world needs moderators. It needs structure. Or else choas will reign supreme. Look I don't want war. But even the U.N. AGREES THAT SADAM DOESN'T HAVE HIS DORRS OPEN. Why do they keep comming back with inconclusive reports? I am done with this topic my little bacon friend. I have tried to see you point of view and I can't. Lets just let it go! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Later |
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 esparvel
Lieutenant
Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Member#: 116
Posts: 110
Location: An Spanish taifa
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Posted:
Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:13 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Well, I've seen in this topic something that I have always believed but I never expected an American would admit in my lifetime.
Yvond, you surprise me, we have always thought over here that the US was everything but a democracy, your words are honey for my ears.
I'm sorry to press the subject Yvond, but a democracy is the government of the people for the people directly or through elected representants, but maybe that's only in decadent Europe, maybe your republic is what we call here a plutocracy, and that would match with the idea we have of Bush and his buddies.
It's amazing how things work in this World, guess what, here in my Third World country we also have two chambers, a Senate where every administrative unit (region, like an American state) has three senators no matter how large or small the unit is and a representantives chamber where the number of representatives depends on the size/population of the administrative unit. The main difference is that here people elect their representantives and government directly, unlike there where the presidential candidates are chosen from a bunch of oligarcs who are more focused on how much they can earn if their candidate wins than on what they can do for the people who elected them, and pay their salaries and junkets, etc...
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The problem with political jokes is that they keep getting elected. |
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SlowMo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Mar 20, 2002
Member#: 29
Posts: 390
Location: Ghent, Belgium
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Posted:
Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:39 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Here's a cool article, which makes me understand more about American public opinion :
CNN transcript is cut a bit short
Just give it a quick peek, it's incredible.
_________________
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry.'" -- Gary Larson |
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jk2silly 
Commander
Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Member#: 30
Posts: 582
Location: Philadelphia Pa USA
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Posted:
Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:36 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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@ Esparvel -
In the US we do NOT have a democracy. Any good American History teacher WILL tell you that if you ask. What we do have is a Democratic Republic. Simmilar but different. That is what allows for the fact that although a man can win the popular vote of the people he does not gain the presidency.
@ SlowMo -
CNN is NOT a reputable source of information. They are biased and skewed in thier presentation of information to 'appeal' to the mass public. While they are not exactly 'tabloid' news they are not like the NY or London Times.
That is all I am going to say on the subject.
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A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. - Calvin and Hobbes - |
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EyeDea
Lieutenant
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Member#: 298
Posts: 204
Location: Vancouver Canada
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Posted:
Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:06 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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quote:
@ SlowMo -
CNN is NOT a reputable source of information. They are biased and skewed in thier presentation of information to 'appeal' to the mass public.
My God, I actualy completely agree with this.
_________________
By responding in any way shape or form, you contractually agree that I’m right, and youre wrong. |
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zev
Cadet 4
Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Member#: 359
Posts: 18
Location: Missouri
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Posted:
Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:17 pm Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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For some reason I cant understand how some of you can stand up for a man that killed 20,000 of his own poeple after the Gulf War. Also Saddam can reach over 150km. They found rockets that can reach well beyond the limit of 150km set after the Gulf War. And when has Osama said he never did "it". I do not want a war, but I think Saddam needs to be removed. He is a threat to his own poeple. Hes already killed thousands of his own. And there are thousands of unaccounted chem weapons still not presented. Also in the 12000 page doccument Irag supplied and said it had everything in it, left out tons of weapons. Iraq has restarted building weapons which were outlawed after the Gulf War. Personally I think he needs to be removed. |
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Caray
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: Oct 17, 2002
Member#: 243
Posts: 408
Location: France
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Posted:
Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:30 am Post subject: [OT] Iraq and US Politics |
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Zev,
We are not for Saddam, we are against the war. Big difference. And to explain why here is a little wargame showing what most people fear :
http://idleworm.wolffelaar.nl/nws/2002/11/swf/iraq2.swf
There's nothing worse than fanatism or religious fanatics thinking they have a 'holy mandate', and we are going straight down that road. Please explain to me how Bush intend to put Pandora back in her box after his little war.
He may very well win the war in five days, it's the aftermath that is frightening.
_________________
My reality cheque bounced |
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